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Post by pjw4118 on Nov 30, 2020 13:08:02 GMT 12
From memory its from WWI and NZ soldiers were stationed there , they also carved a Kiwi into the chalk hill which remains today .
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Post by pjw4118 on Nov 30, 2020 15:56:36 GMT 12
True , but its all very close around there , 10-20 km , so the training grounds are all within a route march of each of the camps . Even Porton Down chemical plant and Boscombe Down are all part of that greater military area . Its worth a day whizzing around there as much as the locked gates permit. Another one is in Cornwall where there four airfields , radar stations and chemical sites all on the same peninsula and like Wiltshire , a military history going back over 200 years in some places . Easy to be a full time historian as there is still so much there.
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Post by gibbo on Nov 30, 2020 19:56:50 GMT 12
True , but its all very close around there , 10-20 km , so the training grounds are all within a route march of each of the camps . Even Porton Down chemical plant and Boscombe Down are all part of that greater military area . Its worth a day whizzing around there as much as the locked gates permit. Another one is in Cornwall where there four airfields , radar stations and chemical sites all on the same peninsula and like Wiltshire , a military history going back over 200 years in some places . Easy to be a full time historian as there is still so much there. Yes there certainly is a lot of military history, recent & ancient, all over the UK, although as mentioned I hadn't heard of this camp. Some articles suggest it was WW2 but given the NZ Army had no significant UK presence in WW2 (if any at all) then it was logical that it would be a WW1 camp. I paid a visit to nearby Bulford in Sept 2016 and even pouring rain didn't dampen the appeal of trudging up to the Kiwi... not sure if one is allowed to but me & the cousin just headed on up... great stuff! We could see (& hear) soldiers on a nearby range firing but I only got nervous heading up a military road nearby which clearly stated tanks could be maneuvering at speed and I figured the rental car might come off 2nd best! |
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Post by davidd on Nov 30, 2020 20:11:03 GMT 12
Well Peter, there was a NZ Army presence in WW2 in the UK, known as the 2nd Echelon I think. They apparently included some bods who were very keen at cutting down trees ......
David D
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 30, 2020 21:29:52 GMT 12
Some articles suggest it was WW2 but given the NZ Army had no significant UK presence in WW2 (if any at all) then it was logical that it would be a WW1 camp. Actually the New Zealand Army did have a significant presence in Britain in WWII. The Second Echelon of the 2nd NZ Division sailed for Egypt in mid 1940 but was diverted to southern England because of the massive threat of invasion faced since the fall of France and the Low Countries, and the massive depletion of men and weapons in the British Army. The AIF also had a major echelon of men diverted to England. The New Zealanders were stationed along the south coast in Kent and Sussex so they would have been right in the thick of the invasion zone if Hitler had crossed the Channel. This fact seems to be totally overlooked nowadays by the brits who always say they stood alone, because the ANZAC's were there standing shoulder to shoulder with them. They remained there till early 1941 when they headed to Egypt and rejoined the 2nd Division. Also separate from the 2nd Echelon, another NZ Army unit, from memory the 7th Anti-Tank Battery, actually formed in Britain, made up from Kiwis who were in the UK working or studying at the time and wanted to get involved. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 30, 2020 21:43:50 GMT 12
As David says (sorry I missed your post before I replied), there was the New Zealand Forestry Unit which went to England specifically to be posted there and they remained there till late 1943. In that time they set up and ran 13 mills in England, creating timber for the war industry. here's an article about their war service when they returned to NZ in November 1943:
N.Z. FORESTRY UNIT
RETURN TO DOMINION
OUTSTANDING SERVICE IN BRITAIN
(P.A.) AUCKLAND. October 31.
With almost three years of outstanding service in timber felling and sawmilling in Britain to their credit members of the New Zealand Forestry Unit have returned to the Dominion. The unit was recruited from New Zealand bushmen and technicians in 1940 at the request of the War Office and went overseas to assist in the important task of cutting and milling timber for war purposes. Its return was arranged some months ago by the New Zealand Government and the British authorities.
The unit began with one mill and later operated 13, all built by the men. Some were Diesel and others steam-powered. The unit produced wood for aeroplanes, naval construction, Army huts, and pit props and worked side by side with English girls of the Women’s Land Army who measured the timber.
The Minister of Defence (the Hon. F Jones), the Minister of Rehabilitation (the Hon. C. F. Skinner), and the officer commanding the Northern Military District (Major-General P. H. Bell, D.S.O.) went on board the transport before it berthed to meet the officers and men.
All the men praised the spirit of the people of Britain under the stress of war and rationing. ‘‘They are just wonderful,” was the common opinion expressed. “They are the only people outside of Europe who know there is a war on.”
The men also expressed their appreciation of British hospitality to the Dominion troops. They said that homes were thrown open and rationed foodstuffs shared with the troops on leave.
British Policy
“The New Zealanders’ tour of duty in Britain has been a most interesting experience,” said Major Courtney Biggs, of the State Forest Service, who commanded the draft. “Britain has a well considered afforestation policy, mainly covering beech and softwoods, but apparently it does not provide for growing much oak.” Major Biggs added that he had brought with him a comprehensive official report on the subject for the use of the State Forest Service.
According to the nominal roll of the draft one officer and 61 other ranks were married in Britain.
After acknowledging the part they had played in providing timber for Britain’s war factories, Major Skinner told the members of the unit in a welcome at Alexandra Park that they would now be asked to assist in rehabilitating their service comrades by producing timber for houses and other structures.
The welcome was held on Saturday afternoon after the men had been entertained to tea and had received their pay before going on furlough. The men gathered in a large informal group before the grandstand from which brief speeches were made. Mr Jones said there was no doubt that the men of the New Zealand forestry companies in Britain had contributed something to the war effort of the British Commonwealth. Appreciation of their efforts had been conveyed in messages and reports from the British Government.
Mr Jones referred to the fact that some of the men had been attracted by 'Those fine English girls” and had married and had children. Naturally they were wondering when their wives and children would be brought to New Zealand. As far as shipping and other circumstances would permit, everything would be done to get them to the Dominion as soon as possible.
South Island Men
Chandler, Charles Henry, Lt. Mrs M. J. Chandler, Hokitika (w.).
Abbott, Allan, Spr. Mrs H. Abott, Tapawera, Nelson (w.).
Abbott, Francis, Spr. Mrs A. Pole, Maori road. Nelson (s.).
Bannister, David lan, L./Cpl. Mrs J O. Bannister, Christchurch (m.).
Bennington, Ellis Earl Lindsay, Spr. Mrs M. Bennington, c/o P.O., Tainui, Hokitika (w.).
Boyer, Leslie Francis, Pte., Mrs V.M. Pearson, 168 Queen street, Westport (s.)
Canty, Thomas John, Spr., Mrs V.W. Canty, Christchurch (w).
Carlsson, Carl Peter James, Spr. Mrs L. Dunply, Motuplko, Nelson (s.).
Coull, Harry Fraser, Sgt Mrs L. M. Coull. St. Albans (w.).
Craig, Frederick Richard Earle, Sgt. Mrs D. S. Craig, c/o. P.O., Hanmer Springs (w.).
Cunningham, Richard James, T./Cpl. Mrs Alice Glen, Greymouth (s.).
Dench, Thomas James, Spr. Mr R. H. Dench, Rangiora (f.).
Dierck, Frederick Peter, Spr. Mrs B. Dierck, .West Melton (m.).
Duff, Bernard Whiting, Spr. Mr J. C. Duff. Wakapuaka, Nelson (f.).
Dundas, Edward Ernest, W.O.II. Mrs D. A. Dundas, Linwood (w.).
Eley, George, Spr. Mrs E. M. Temperly, Burwood (friend).
Ellis, Norman Bruce Frederick, Pte. Mrs R. E. Ellis, Greymouth (w.).
Fantham, Leslie Garfield, Spr. Mrs C. Fantham, Rangiora (m.).
Field, Leonard Thornton, Spr. Mrs B. Field, Spreydon (w.).
Fowler. Alfred Keith, Pte. Mrs A. L. Fowler, Motueka (m.).
Francis, Cecil, Spr. Mrs L. Francis. 75 Barbour street, Linwood (w.).
Franks, Gordon Allan, Pte. Miss M. Franks, Christchurch (s.).
Grieve. Arthur Tainui, Spr. Mrs M. Grieve, Christchurch (m.).
Griffith, Hugh Hamilton, Spr. Mr H. M. Griffith, Nelson (f.).
Grubb, John Barbrook, L./Cpl. Miss A. Grubb, Christchurch (s.).
Guise, Eric Thomas, Spr. Mrs J. C. Guise, Christchurch (w.).
Hill, Claude, Pte. Mrs S. Hill, Motueka (m.).
Hunt, Charles Henry Thomas, Pte. Mrs D. Hunt, Tinwald (m.).
Jackson, Thomas Michael, Spr. Mrs N. Jurgenson, Hokitika (s.).
Kelly, George Innes, Spr. Mr J. Kelly, Hokitika (b).
Kite, James, Spr. Mrs J. Kite, Redcliffs (m.).
Lamb, Laurence Allan. Spr. Mrs I. M. Lamb, Tasman (w.).
Lamberton, Arthur Alexander, Spr. Mr T. Lamberton, Cobden (f.).
Leach, Thomas Andrew, Spr. Mrs A. Leach, Brunnerton (w.).
Lodge, George Henry. Pte. Mr W. Lodge, Arapito (brother).
McBride, Archibald Michael, T./Cpl. Mr T. McBride, Wataroa (f.).
McBride, Malcolm Joseph, Pte. Mr T. M. McBride, Wataroa (f.).
McKane. Russell Vernon, Spr. Mrs S. McKane; Reefton (m.).
McQuarters, Joseph Elliott, A./Sgt. Mrs I. R. McQuarters, Ashburton (w.).
Mason, Wilfred, Spr. Mrs A. B. Mason. Timaru (w.).
Moran, Colin Anthony, Spr. Mrs J. Moran, Kaikoura (m.).
Morrison, John. Pte. Mrs E. Morrison Spreydon (w.).
Osborne, Henry, Spr. Mrs L. Officer, Stoke, Nelson (s.).
Palmer, Oscar Samuel. Spr. Mrs E. M. Palmer, Woolston (m.).
Pawson. Victor James, Spr. Mrs U. Lighhtfoot, Spreydon (s.).
Popplewell, Raymond Joseph, Pte. Mrs J. Popplewell, New Brighton (w.).
Prattley, John Edward, Spr. Mrs A. Prattley, Leithfield (w.).
Seymour, Stanley Briscoe, Pte, Mrs A Seymour. Wakatu, Nelson (w.).
Smith. Alan Wellesley, Spr. Mrs C. Newman, Papanui (friend).
Spencer, William. Spr,. Mr H. Spencer. Christchurch.
Stanley, Henry. Spr. Mrs E. Widdowson. Riccarton (aunt).
Stevens, Albert Edward, Spr. Mrs E Stevens. Hokitika (w.).
Stokes, Oliver Nicholas. Pte. Mrs M. C teach, Westport (m.).
Stone. John, Spr. Mrs D. Nimmo. Nelson (sister).
Symes. Vincent Gabriel. Spr. Mrs G. M Symes, Fairlle (m.),
Thompson. Cyril Henry, Spr. Mrs F C M. Thompson, St Albans (w.).
Tinetti, Joseph, Spr., Mrs R. Tinetti, Hokitika (m)
Turner, Frederick Albert, Spr. Mrs A M. Turner, Christchurch (w.).
Warrington, Ivan Edward, Pte. Mrs A Warrington. New Brighton, Christchurch (m)
Williams, Robert Kitchener, Spr. Mrs F. Williams, Orari (m.).
WORK IN DOMINION MILLS
MEN OF FORESTRY UNIT
(P-A.). AUCKLAND. October 31.
"The men of the Forestry Unit would be returning to their employment in the Dominion as civilians," said the Minister of Defence (the Hon. F. Jones). “They will be granted the usual 28 days’ leave and the same privileges as the other men returning from overseas.”
Mr. Jones added that arrangements had been made to have the men medically examined, and, after formalities connected with their release were completed, they would be directed into forestry mills in the Dominion to assist in producing more timber. It was for that express purpose that they had been brought back.
PRESS, 1 NOVEMBER 1943
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Post by errolmartyn on Dec 1, 2020 8:19:59 GMT 12
Some articles suggest it was WW2 but given the NZ Army had no significant UK presence in WW2 (if any at all) then it was logical that it would be a WW1 camp. Actually the New Zealand Army did have a significant presence in Britain in WWII. The Second Echelon of the 2nd NZ Division sailed for Egypt in mid 1940 but was diverted to southern England because of the massive threat of invasion faced since the fall of France and the Low Countries, and the massive depletion of men and weapons in the British Army. The AIF also had a major echelon of men diverted to England. The New Zealanders were stationed along the south coast in Kent and Sussex so they would have been right in the thick of the invasion zone if Hitler had crossed the Channel. This fact seems to be totally overlooked nowadays by the brits who always say they stood alone, because the ANZAC's were there standing shoulder to shoulder with them. They remained there till early 1941 when they headed to Egypt and rejoined the 2nd Division. Also separate from the 2nd Echelon, another NZ Army unit, from memory the 7th Anti-Tank Battery, actually formed in Britain, made up from Kiwis who were in the UK working or studying at the time and wanted to get involved. Interesting to reflect on the fact that in WWI the first New Zealanders (the NZEF Main Body) set sail for England only to be diverted along the way to Egypt, while in WW2 the Second Echelon set sail for Egypt only to be divered to England! Errol |
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Post by baronbeeza on Dec 1, 2020 10:58:55 GMT 12
The sawmillers may be a bit of a thread drift as I would be surprised if they were in Wiltshire. Then again does anyone know where the 13 sawmills could have been located ?
Naturally you are going to need trees but the mills would normally be near a rail head or some form of road.
I can only think of two sawmills that I know of in Britain. One was in Horsham Forest near the Chequers Pub. That would be in North Sussex I expect. I see now it was near Rowhook.
The other was further South and near the coast. I actually worked out of there one afternoon.
A Lotus parts supplier had his business based in the old Charlton Sawmills premises, near Chichester.
Those mills were far from remote and would actually be very desirable locations.
Did the NZ'ers set-up their mills in the wop wops, sites that may not have been previously established ?
*** EDIT***
To answer my own question here it does seem as though the NZ'ers were operating in the South of England. The Aussies and Poms further North and the Canadian units in Scotland.
The Kiwis had it good.
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Post by tbf2504 on Dec 1, 2020 12:55:22 GMT 12
The NZEF Forestry group are associated most closely with a certain de Havilland product, the mosquito. They were tasked with cutting down and milling trees from a country estate that were used to produce the prototype mosquito. There is several references to them in books on the mosquito history, one being that the "lorded gentry" of one estate complained that "those colonials" had no respect for his land and were carving up great tracks as they removed the trees from the felling site!
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Post by pjw4118 on Dec 3, 2020 15:57:20 GMT 12
This rang a bell ( very rare these days) and I looked up notes from Bill Simpson who at the time was instructing beam approach at South Cerney (Glos) So to add a bit of colour to the discussion these are the notes
" Real bushmen , hard cases , drank in the same pub as me. Called the English beer weasel piss and the trees they cut down , matchsticks. The locals couldnt understand Kiwi timber jacks so they jacked up one end ( of the pub?) and everyone fell about like they were full. Ate anything they could trap or shoot and got into trouble for cleaning out the local Lords pheasants . Meant to be under the NZ Army but they ignored that .I think they had a hell of a job finding them all when it was time to go home. They made a lot of money selling the timber to the locals ".
I am sorry I didnt record more , as then the subject of NZ bushmen in England was news to me .
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Post by delticman on Dec 3, 2020 16:29:24 GMT 12
This rang a bell ( very rare these days) and I looked up notes from Bill Simpson who at the time was instructing beam approach at South Cerney (Glos) So to add a bit of colour to the discussion these are the notes " Real bushmen , hard cases , drank in the same pub as me. Called the English beer weasel piss and the trees they cut down , matchsticks. The locals couldnt understand Kiwi timber jacks so they jacked up one end ( of the pub?) and everyone fell about like they were full. Ate anything they could trap or shoot and got into trouble for cleaning out the local Lords pheasants . Meant to be under the NZ Army but they ignored that .I think they had a hell of a job finding them all when it was time to go home. They made a lot of money selling the timber to the locals ". I am sorry I didnt record more , as then the subject of NZ bushmen in England was news to me . One of them must have been Sam Cash? |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 3, 2020 17:09:33 GMT 12
That's some terrific memories there. I'll bet they certainly were a real hard case unit. Definitely some Sam Cash types I think, haha.
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Post by baronbeeza on Dec 3, 2020 17:24:11 GMT 12
My family were all from the West Coast bush and my father actually worked with a couple when they returned. One came back with an English bride and the other would never listen to whatever he was told.
Basically ties the stories together.
I think they would have had a good war..
My father said he knew they went purely for the saw-milling job and not regular Army as such. He made up a list of about 55 men from Karamea that joined the Forces and he had two Lodge brothers on it.
Theo Scarlett, Les Scarlett and Len Chambers would be on that list. Possibly even Jack Denvir.
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Post by gibbo on Dec 3, 2020 22:17:28 GMT 12
Actually the New Zealand Army did have a significant presence in Britain in WWII. The Second Echelon of the 2nd NZ Division sailed for Egypt in mid 1940 but was diverted to southern England because of the massive threat of invasion faced since the fall of France and the Low Countries, and the massive depletion of men and weapons in the British Army. The AIF also had a major echelon of men diverted to England. The New Zealanders were stationed along the south coast in Kent and Sussex so they would have been right in the thick of the invasion zone if Hitler had crossed the Channel. This fact seems to be totally overlooked nowadays by the brits who always say they stood alone, because the ANZAC's were there standing shoulder to shoulder with them. They remained there till early 1941 when they headed to Egypt and rejoined the 2nd Division. Also separate from the 2nd Echelon, another NZ Army unit, from memory the 7th Anti-Tank Battery, actually formed in Britain, made up from Kiwis who were in the UK working or studying at the time and wanted to get involved. Interesting to reflect on the fact that in WWI the first New Zealanders (the NZEF Main Body) set sail for England only to be diverted along the way to Egypt, while in WW2 the Second Echelon set sail for Egypt only to be divered to England! Errol Wow thanks everyone, been an interesting discussion. Clearly I need to do a helluva lot more research into 2NZEF... I have to admit I've been so focused in recent years on the 1NZEF that I've largely ignored the 2NZEF. Maybe a factor is that while all my family in WW1 were Army, family in WW2 were all RNZAF... bar 1 in Army (KIA Italy). |
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