B-24?

[shorty]

In the June 1990 Wings there a mention that Guido Zucccol1 has purchased an apparently airworthy B-24 from China. Two further,non-airworthy ,examples had also been purchased following inspection at a base outside Beijing.
Any one know what became of this project and the aircraft?

[ZacYates]

The piece I read (unfortunately it doesn't seem I took a photo/scan of it but it was either Wings or Aeroplane from the late 1980s) said Guido was looking at an example in India.

[Dave Homewood]

There are only 13 complete Liberators still in existence, and of those two are airworthy. Five of the survivors including the flying example with Collings and the one in Hendon came out of India.

I wonder if rather than China it should have read Chino? Kermit Weeks bought his from Chino.

[Mustang51]

China...Aeroplane Monthly.....and you can thank the guy that wrote that article for the deal falling through.........

[Dave Homewood]

Oh dear, another one of those cases where someone blabs and the deal sours. It still happens today too, and that sort of thing is the reason I am very careful to remove any comments posted on the forum about cases that I have been informed as being secret. A few people do not get it and call me a Nazi.. but if it means deals do not go sour then I will protect it.

So Ando I am sure it is now long enough after the fact to ask, what happened to the aircraft? Where in China were they? They are not listed as survivors on the Wikipedia list so I guess they were scrapped? And was one really a flyer?

[Mustang51]

Last info I had from Guido was that it was supposed to be one of a number taken into Communist held area during civil war. None of them were flyers at the time of discussions but I believe at least one was complete but this was well before China was as it is today. Negotiations were to be kept quiet but the cat was let out of the bag and it all collapsed. Judging from the way Guido described it while staying at my place with Randal McFarlane, if he was Don Corleone, someone would have cement shoes. Guessing that if one or more were still there they would be know of by now.

[Dave Homewood]

What a huge shame. And to think, with China now much more open and semi-capitalist, it would have been much easier to do a deal in subsequent years since then, if they still existed.

[Mustang51]

No Dave, don't think so. So many levels of bureaucracy now that something of that nature would now be a govt to govt thing. Even ramped up incredibly since the La.9 deal. Back then it was easier as you 'dealt' with only a few individuals who had their self interest very much in mind. Talk to the guys who managed to export the first MiG15s from there and hear about some of the things they saw. I spoke at length with one of them at Flo's at Chino and even 'back in the day' what they saw at an aeronautical tech school sounded like fiction but I had no reason to doubt.

[boz]

While I am no expert, I firmly believe that there is much yet to be found. I have had a few trips into China and visited both museums and factories and there are some unbelievable items floating around. They, like many other countries, have a mix of not finding value in the same items as we do, and/or placing strange value on items when an interest is shown. I have seen aircraft and cars in the back blocks of Sth America and Mid East that I would have loved to be able to bring home. Another factor often forgotten in NZ is the shear size of some of these countries and that they have scattered, almost forgotten airstrips in back blocks that have something interesting abandoned in long grass or behind sheds. Unless you are “local” or know someone, you will never know what’s there because it’s considered junk. I still go back to seeing a guy sneak around the block in Tehran in his pride and joy - a Ferrari 250GTO that wasn’t supposed to exist according to the western world but he kept well polished and hidden.

[Brett]

Aeroplane Monthly. May 1990.

An apparently airworthy

B-24 Liberator is being
acquired in China by Australian
warbird collector Guido Zuccoli,
who plans to have it flown to
Hong Kong. The aircraft is
believed to have been given to
Mao Tse Tung by Stalin in the
Fifties as a personal transport.
No further news as we went to
press, but we hope to provide
more details soon.

Aeroplane Monthly. June 1990.

Further to last month's
extraordinary report about a
Consolidated B-24 Liberator
being acquired in China by
Australian collector Guido Zuc-
coli, antipodean correspondent
Bob Livingstone has provided
more details.

While negotiating with the
Chinese to acquire some Yak-11
trainers, Zuccoli and partner
Nobby Bartsch followed up rum-
ours of a B-24 and were offered an
airworthy Liberator, for a price
which included delivery to Hong
Kong. Zuccoli paid a deposit and
arrangements were made for
Bartsch to inspect the aircraft
at Changping Air Base near Beijing
(the site of the new nation
aviation museum – see
Grapevine, December 1989). No
airworthy B-24 was seen,
although Zuccoli is confident
that it exists, but Bartsch did
inspect two decidedly non-
flyable examples on offer at
$100,000 (£62,000) apiece.
An American has offered $½
million (£310,000) for the
airworthy aircraft, but Zuccoli
would like to see it sold in
Australia. Grapevine will be fol-
lowing further developments.

[Mustang51]

Definitely not airworthy according to what Guido told Randal and I but one was supposed to be complete and capable of being returned to ferry status

[Dave Homewood]

I wonder if there is more to the Chinese Stirling rumour that used to pop up on the old FlyPast Forum than just a humorous myth?

[Mustang51]

Dave, there is always a modicum of truth in all these rumours. I do not dismiss anything these days that sounds like it could be plausible. Years ago I was working at Camden Museum (ironically on the now Temora Spit MkVIII). A visitor came in and was very interested in what was happening. He told a story about a B-25 that ran out of fuel during the war. It landed intact on a claypan 75 miles east of Tennant Creek in the Tanami Desert and was still there complete. As I said, these stories have enough detail in them but are always just that little bit out of reach. Some time after that, the Purchasing Officer from work came to my office and showed me a copy of a trade newspaper. It was the Acrovian produced by scaffolding company Acrow. It showed a B-25 with scaffolding around the port engine. The aircraft was on a claypan 75 miles east of Tennant Creek in the Tanami Desert. From my recollection it was disassembled and transported to Darwin just in time to be substantially damaged in Cyclone Tracy. I think they started a restoration on it but not sure if it was ever finished.......so, The Stirling may not be too fanciful and, as Boz said, China is huge and if you are not a local in some of the very remote locations, you would never know......

[johnnyfalcon]

Yeah, I heard there were a bunch of Spitfires buried in crates somewhere...

[Dave Homewood]

There was talk on FlyPast from someone who claimed to have actually seen a Stirling in a hangar full of aircraft in Russia too. That is more plausible than one in China.

And someone posted there that there was a shed in New Zealand full of Dauntless that were rescued from the scrapper, four or five of them. That is possible and more believable but I will believe it when I see it.

And of course some years back our own member Hairy posted a rumour he'd heard that John Smith had not one but two Mosquitoes. Well that turned out to be absolutely true, and more!

[saratoga]

The Tanami B-25 is in reasonable shape with the Darwin Aviation Museum. They have done a good job of restoring the forward section, with wings. The seperate rear fuselage/tail section is still undergoing restoration as far as i know(@2018), but the extant aircraft is on its wheels. Another aircraft I managed to get to clamber into, back in the days when that sort of activity was allowed.

[vultee43]

So many possibilities out there. I have no doubt China and Russian would be hiding many hidden aviation secrets. I guess we may never know the full extent of what 'Yurt Finds' there may be. China certainly could hold many treasures. As we know they have a complete P61, some rare Japanese types and B29s, so B24s would not be out of the realm of possibility. I wholeheartedly agree with others though - loose lips can sink ships.

[vultee43]

So many possibilities out there. I have no doubt China and Russian would be hiding many hidden aviation secrets. I guess we may never know the full extent of what 'Yurt Finds' there may be. China certainly could hold many treasures. As we know they have a complete P61, some rare Japanese types and B29s, so B24s would not be out of the realm of possibility. I wholeheartedly agree with others though - loose lips can sink ships.

[nuuumannn]

There's all sorts of weird goodies in China if you bother to look.

The carrier deck

Oriental Land several Ks outside of Shanghai has an 'aircraft carrier'. That radar suite looks suspiciously ornate.

This is still my favourite 'discovery', the former Soviet Navy flagship the Kiev.

Kiev 87

I went to the big aviation museum outside Beijing, couldn't see a Liberator or a Stirling, but there's lots of other intriguing stuff there.

[ZacYates]

Feb 2, 2022 18:41:34 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

And someone posted there that there was a shed in New Zealand full of Dauntless that were rescued from the scrapper, four or five of them. That is possible and more believable but I will believe it when I see it.

My fingers are beginning to get numb from being crossed for this ever since I heard it!