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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 14, 2022 21:08:34 GMT 12
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Post by davidd on Jun 22, 2022 10:58:08 GMT 12
Wow, that is a little gem Dave, I almost missed this one! The mystery "Percival" is the seldom-photographed (in RNZAF service) Vega Gull of course, and the Beechcraft should rightly be called an SNB (Navy/Marine Corps) rather than a UC-45 (USAAF). Note the unusual unit markings (commencing "1W") on this aircraft (I think it belonged to 1st Marine Air Wing). I presume this film dates from late 1942 or early/mid 1943. The Vincent/Vildebeest (impossible to tell one from 'tuther without benefit of a serial number) is one of the drogue towers judging by its overall yellow paint scheme (note the engine is running), and it is just possible to see (in a blurry sort of way) the slipstream-operated winch airscrew. Also seems to have Type "C" roundels (not very clear), but indicates a date more likely in 1943 to me, probably belongs to No. 2 Anti-Aircraft Co-operation Flight, also based at Rongotai alongside the Communications Flight. Also interesting is the Harvard, with code letter "T" on cowl lower lip. This is an armed aircraft, with Brownings in both wings, one would be the original factory fitting, the other would the NZ modification to convert a certain proportion of our Harvard fleet into "interim" fighters (we were desperate!) This explains why one gun barrel is almost flush with wing leading edge, the other protruding in no uncertain manner. Possible that this Harvard is visiting from No. 30 (Torpedo Bomber) Squadron, from Gisborne, which unit frequently visited Rongotai, including one which crashed right on the beach just off end of one of the runways. There is a photo of this crash, aircraft was in full camouflage (RAF type). Note that No. 2 A/A Co-Op Flight was merged with 42 Squadron in early 1944.
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Post by planewriting on Jun 22, 2022 12:41:24 GMT 12
Hi David, your post has given me something to get my teeth into while struggling to shake off this confounded lurgy despite having had the flu jab complete with all the bells and whistles... I can't help that much but my research shows that the Harvard that crashed at Rongotai was NZ1030 occurring on 19 October 1943. Looking at www.adf-serials.com.au/nz-serials/ a possible candidate for "T" might be Mk11 NZ997 which crashed there on 4 August 1943. Is the Harvard featured a Mk11 or a Mk 11A? My two bob's worth. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 22, 2022 13:37:27 GMT 12
Wow, that is a little gem Dave, I almost missed this one! The mystery "Percival" is the seldom-photographed (in RNZAF service) Vega Gull of course, I did wonder but I am not familiar enough with those impressed types to have made that call, so thanks. Good point, thanks. Ah yes, I was thinking the same that it was a yellow drogue tower, but I had forgotten that there was the Anti-Aircraft flight there, and had assumed it was down from the OTU at Ohakea. Yes, that makes sense that it was a locally based Beest. It is equally possible that it may have been a Masterton-based No. 14 (Fighter) Squadron Harvard, as they also visited Rongotai regularly. And possible it was one up from Fairhall too from No. 16 (F) Squadron or No. 3 (Fighter) Maintenance Unit there. |
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Post by davidd on Jun 22, 2022 14:04:24 GMT 12
Peter, not that easy to differentiate a Mk. II from a IIA (the RAF system that we used on Harvards, and Hudsons, was Roman numerals, and not Arabic-type), so cannot really help either, particularly in head-on views such as this case. You probably know that the rear canopy area on Harvards could be in two possible configurations, and that aerial systems and armament arrangements could vary, including the NZ-modded "fighters". Then there are those with the substituted wooden parts (a small number of our IIAs only, not very obvious in photographs unless very close up, when you can note the lack of rivets!) At some point in production, the maximum aileron movement was reduced by a considerable degree (for safety reasons I think), and this could also be incorporated as a modification on earlier examples, if they didn't already have it. The arrangements with the fixed nose gun was not a universal fit either - for instance I don't think this was built-in to our early "plain" Mk. IIs, but most later aircraft seemed to have this. Radio fits were another point of variance, more particularly post-war. Early Harvards also were fitted with R-1340-S3H1 Wasp engines (probably the Mk. IIs only) whereas all the later ones had the standardised AN-1 military version.
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Post by tbf2504 on Jun 22, 2022 15:21:16 GMT 12
A possibility is the Harvard at Rongotai to partake in the US Marine Corps exercise landings at Paekakariki? Noting there is a link on this forum to that footage shown on TV recently showing a Harvard coming low over the beach.
It would make sense that the General was in town to observe these exercises prior to them shipping out.
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Post by planewriting on Jun 22, 2022 16:15:10 GMT 12
A possibility is the Harvard at Rongotai to partake in the US Marine Corps exercise landings at Paekakariki? Noting there is a link on this forum to that footage shown on TV recently showing a Harvard coming low over the beach. It would make sense that the General was in town to observe these exercises prior to them shipping out. You know, it crossed my mind when replying to DavidD that the General was in town to check out the boys at Paekakariki. Was about to type that in when I got distracted by HER01 nice and low right overhead in a nicely banked turn. When I got back I hit "reply". Yes, I did know about the rear canopies. I remember the late Cliff Jenks doing an extensive article on them years ago. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 22, 2022 19:30:00 GMT 12
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Post by 30sqnatc on Jun 23, 2022 13:29:00 GMT 12
white cross on 20 lt can = water
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 23, 2022 18:33:52 GMT 12
Phew!  |
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Post by curtiss on Jun 23, 2022 21:55:31 GMT 12
I think The Harvard at Rongotai is most likely a IIa as it has a straight pitot probe. Mk II aircraft had a "cranked" pitot probe. Perhaps some were modified, but I havent seen any evidence of that.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 23, 2022 22:45:02 GMT 12
If this was a No. 17 Squadron Harvard, and was there for that exercise seen on 25 March 1943, there is actually a really good chance it was a Mk II, as they had mostly Mk II's on strength. Only three Harvards known to be on the unit at that time were Mk. IIa's. Here is the list.
NZ916 - II
NZ918 - II
NZ942 - II
NZ971 - II
NZ973 - II
NZ976 - II
NZ978 - II
NZ980 - II
NZ981 - II
NZ983 - II
NZ984 - II
NZ987 - II
NZ1008 - IIa
NZ1018 - IIa
NZ1019 - IIa
Also it seems P-40's from the squadron took part with the USMC exercises that week, not necessarily all over the same Wellington beach though, as the lost No. 17 Squadron Operations Record Book I have been reconstructing from logbooks shows.
(All these flights were made from Seagrove, Whenuapai or Mangere, so the USMC must have been doing stuff closer to Auckland that week too):
23 March 1943
Aircraft Pilot Duty Time
KTY NZ3008 F/L John Arkwright USMC Co-operation 35 mins
KTY NZ3008 F/L John Arkwright USMC Co-operation 45 mins
HVD NZ978 P/O Des Hogan USMC Co-operation 40 mins
HVD NZ978 P/O Des Hogan USMC Co-operation 50 mins
24 March 1943
KTY NZ3019 F/L John Arkwright USMC Co-operation 15 mins
KTY NZ3019 F/L John Arkwright USMC Co-operation 15 mins
KTY NZ3019 F/L John Arkwright USMC Co-operation 45 mins
KTY NZ3019 F/L John Arkwright USMC Co-operation 1 hour 5 mins
HVD NZ984 F/O Jim Balfour P/O Des Hogan USMC Co-operation 1 hour 30 mins
HVD NZ984 P/O Des Hogan USMC Co-operation 50 mins
25 March 1943
KTY NZ3015 F/L John Arkwright USMC Co-operation 45 mins
KTY NZ3008 F/L John Arkwright USMC Co-operation 45 mins
26 March 1943
KTY NZ3008 F/L John Arkwright USMC Co-operation 1 hour
KTY NZ3007 F/L John Arkwright USMC Co-operation 35 mins
HVD NZ984 F/O Christopher Scott P/O Des Hogan USMC Co-operation 1 hour 5 mins
HVD NZ978 P/O Des Hogan USMC Co-operation 50 mins
HVD NZ984 P/O Des Hogan USMC Co-operation 55 mins
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Post by baz62 on Jun 24, 2022 9:31:33 GMT 12
I think The Harvard at Rongotai is most likely a IIa as it has a straight pitot probe. Mk II aircraft had a "cranked" pitot probe. Perhaps some were modified, but I havent seen any evidence of that. And it looks like she has a radio mast forward of the cockpit so yes MK IIa as the II didnt have them. I googled RNZAF Harvard just to look at photos of MK II Harvrads just to confirm that they didnt have radio masts and found a photo of NZ1038 painted in Brazilian Air Force demonstartion markings! (I'm going to ask a question but in the Harvavd page). |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 24, 2022 11:36:10 GMT 12
One thing that can be confirmed, if the date truly was late March 1943, is that Harvard was not from No. 15 (F) Squadron as they were in Tonga, and almost certainly not from No. 14 (F) Squadron as they were at Whenuapai preparing to start flying north to the Pacific on the 26th of March, so very unlikely they'd be involved in a major exercise immediately before they did that.
No 18 (F) Squadron did not form till 5th of June 1943, and No. 19 (F) Squadron on the 10th of December 1943, so not them.
No. 30 Squadron had not yet formed, they came into being on the 4th of June 1943, and I do not think their predecessor unit No. 8 (GR) Squadron ever had Harvards as they flew Vincents and Oxfords.
So whittling it down, and given the armament and camouflage, it could have been from one of the following:
- No. 16 (F) Squadron based at Fairhall/Woodbourne
- No. 17 (F) Squadron, based at Seagrove, who as demonstrated above were involved in the exercise,
- No. 21 (Army Co-op) Squadron from Milson given that AC Hinds were involved
- No. 2 (F) OTU, visiting from Ohakea - but I am not sure if they'd started to add IIa's to their fleet that early in 1943?
If the Harvard definitely is a Mk. IIa and it was from No. 17 (F) Squadron, it is most likely NZ1008, NZ1018 or NZ1019.
No. 16 (F) Squadron is known to have had two Mk. IIa's at that time period too on strength, NZ1006 (which as XO-I so not that one) and NZ1007.
So it could very well be NZ1007, NZ1008, NZ1018 or NZ1019.
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Post by Antonio on Jun 24, 2022 12:30:41 GMT 12
The Vincent / Vildebeest is coded O ? 
It is hard to see if there are upper wing roundels ('B' type) but they must be there. Also the fuselage roundel is a small (non-standard?) 'A' Type (not 'C') as well as a fin flash that is close to a 'C' type. |
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Post by Antonio on Jun 24, 2022 12:40:40 GMT 12
RNZAF Army Co-Op Squadron Hind/s and No. 1 (GR) Squadron Hudsons! Also Harvard JZ-Y, which will be from No. 17 (Fighter) Squadron. Could not resist... 
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Post by tbf2504 on Jun 24, 2022 12:46:32 GMT 12
The aircraft used by the General was JRB-2 Bu4724. The national insignia indicates the aircraft was in NZ in early mid 1943 (It was recorded as being in Australia in July 1943, probably part of the same tour) Later there were two stars painted in the forward fuselage port side indicating it was the general's transport.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 24, 2022 12:47:12 GMT 12
Hmm, is it an O, or is it a panel, as seen in this shot of a similar target towing Vincent? MUS120068 - LINK 3/4 rear view of Vincent NZ304, believed to be at RNZAF Station Nelson. Note the all-yellow drogue towing colour scheme.  |
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Post by Antonio on Jun 24, 2022 15:36:16 GMT 12
I defer to your judgment Dave.
A good comparison between the two images, NZ304 with the small 'C' type roundel too.
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Post by johnnyfalcon on Jun 24, 2022 18:19:20 GMT 12
I think The Harvard at Rongotai is most likely a IIa as it has a straight pitot probe. Mk II aircraft had a "cranked" pitot probe. Perhaps some were modified, but I havent seen any evidence of that. And it looks like she has a radio mast forward of the cockpit so yes MK IIa as the II didnt have them. I googled RNZAF Harvard just to look at photos of MK II Harvrads just to confirm that they didnt have radio masts and found a photo of NZ1038 painted in Brazilian Air Force demonstartion markings! (I'm going to ask a question but in the Harvavd page). Congratulations Baz! I've never see Harvard spelled three different ways in one post! |
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