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Post by gibbo on Oct 10, 2022 18:30:29 GMT 12
I've recently started re-reading some of my book collection with a focus on the European & North African air-war in WW2. Most of these I purchased new in the 80' & 90's... when the guys flying then were retired & writing their memoirs. Anyway I'm getting much more out of them this time around due to all the other 'knowledge' I've absorbed since! Having now also started using the library again after close to 40 years, I've just finishing reading Vincent Orange's 1990 biography 'Coningham' which was one I've never read. Having been aware of his name & reputation for some time I've never got around to it.
Whilst Aussie born & NZ raised he always considered himself a NZer and like Park he made a huge impression during WW2. Considered to basically be the person who developed the concept of Army air-support he certainly left a huge legacy. Like Park he had to 'deal' with Leigh-Mallory who clearly was almost universally hated (maybe he set the tone for that in the way he ran 12 Group during the BoB, and more specifically how he & others treated Dowding & Park afterward!?!). The book also clearly shows Montgomery as the self-obsessed, political beast that he was!
So if you need a good book to read....!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 10, 2022 20:41:14 GMT 12
The book also clearly shows Montgomery as the self-obsessed, political beast that he was! It is interesting how so many historians have this view of Monty, and yet he a) got the job done better than any of his predecessors and his contemporaries, and more importantly he b) was actually liked and respected by his men. Not many generals with high opinions of themselves and a political agenda actually achieved both those things, interestingly.
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Post by gibbo on Oct 10, 2022 20:55:33 GMT 12
The book also clearly shows Montgomery as the self-obsessed, political beast that he was! It is interesting how so many historians have this view of Monty, and yet he a) got the job done better than any of his predecessors and his contemporaries, and more importantly he b) was actually liked and respected by his men. Not many generals with high opinions of themselves and a political agenda actually achieved both those things, interestingly. Yes that's true he did get results although Orange clearly has the view that in some instances there was as much luck in the outcome as tactical brilliance... easy to say decades later but there's at least one telling quote made after the war where one of Monty's offsiders admitted deliberate delays in one instance merely to push personal agendas against those he didn't like. I'd have to agree with Orange's assertions where he really lost credit was the delay centred on taking Caen on D-Day but even more the disaster that was Arnhem... when he should've been focusing on securing the port of Antwerp & surrounds. At the end of the day the Brits created a PR machine centred around Monty that then couldn't be reeled back... much of these politics is discussed in the Coningham story. <edit>: but yes Dave he was loved & did get work done! War is a funny thing eh!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 10, 2022 22:11:46 GMT 12
I think all generals have a certain amount of good and bad luck that make or break their careers and reputations. Anything can happen in combat no matter how much you have planned beforehand.
But the really great leaders have the skill to turn luck to their advantage when it happens.
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Post by oj on Oct 11, 2022 19:25:45 GMT 12
Gibbo, Read "With Predudice" by Lord Tedder. Alas, my copy did not get returned after a loan out about 1974!
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Post by gibbo on Oct 12, 2022 12:18:48 GMT 12
Gibbo, Read "With Prejudice" by Lord Tedder. Alas, my copy did not get returned after a loan out about 1974! No but about to pick-up Vincent Orange's book 'Tedder - quietly in command' from the library. Akl libraries do have "With Prejudice" so if you recommend it I might just have to put that on my list
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Post by oj on Oct 12, 2022 20:21:06 GMT 12
Re: "With Prejudice" by Lord Tedder. I do recommend. Tedder eventually became Allied Deputy Supreme Commander under Eisenhower.
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Post by gibbo on Oct 12, 2022 21:53:45 GMT 12
Re: "With Prejudice" by Lord Tedder. I do recommend. Tedder eventually became Allied Deputy Supreme Commander under Eisenhower. Awesome, thx oj...it's now on my 'list'
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Post by flyinghilly on Nov 7, 2022 12:58:58 GMT 12
I know a lot about Coningham and in fact I own his log book - its really interesting and I note than when he was an instructor at Cranwell he taught Frank Whittle to fly. I think it is a bit strange that I would own such a thing. Along withP ark he was the most senior RAF officer in WW2 from NZ. I have been wondering what I should do with it.
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Post by errolmartyn on Nov 7, 2022 13:37:16 GMT 12
I know a lot about Coningham and in fact I own his log book - its really interesting and I note than when he was an instructor at Cranwell he taught Frank Whittle to fly. I think it is a bit strange that I would own such a thing. Along withP ark he was the most senior RAF officer in WW2 from NZ. I have been wondering what I should do with it. Donated it to the Air Force Museum of New Zealand here in Christchurch - that way I could get to view it without having to indulge in unaffordable (for me) travel! The AFMNZ also has professionally trained folk to look after such things and ensure they are protected indefinitely in an appropriate environment. Cheers, Errol
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Post by tbf2504 on Nov 7, 2022 15:29:52 GMT 12
Thoroughly agree with Errol's recommendation to lodge the logbook with the AFMNZ. They have a marvellous collection of logbooks which are allowed to be accessed (under supervision) by bonafide researchers. I have donated several logbooks in the past
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 7, 2022 15:47:50 GMT 12
I also concur completely, Wigram is the only place I'd recommend for logbooks, as they have professional care for them, proper security, and the ability to view and use the information within. They actually will photograph logbooks for researchers too, who cannot get to the museum themselves.
I would not recommend Auckland Museum, because in my research I have found they have lost at least two logbooks I wanted to look at. One is in their catalogue system but missing from the box it should have been in. The other I have seen before, and when I asked to see it again it has vanished from their catalogue - they have not deaccessioned it, they have no record it ever existed in their computer system. Yet that is how I originally found it was a search of their catalogue. Crazy and very unprofessional for such a highly regarded museum.
A logbook of such international importance needs to be in our national Air Force museum, at Wigram, in my opinion, if you decide to no longer own it yourself.
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Post by tbf2504 on Nov 8, 2022 7:48:55 GMT 12
There are some good words on Conningham's contribution to the war effort in the book "The Right of the Line" by John Terraine
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Post by gibbo on Dec 28, 2022 11:41:45 GMT 12
Re: "With Prejudice" by Lord Tedder. I do recommend. Tedder eventually became Allied Deputy Supreme Commander under Eisenhower. Awesome, thx oj...it's now on my 'list' Hey oj, meant to let you know I followed your recommendation & got "With Prejudice" by Lord Tedder from Akl Libraries & read it... great referral thanks, incredible insight to the man himself. Have since just completed Denis Richards book on Portal, CAS for most of WW2... gosh when we look at the likes of Portal; Tedder; Dowding; Park; Conninghan and a host of others it's very clear that the RAF had an incredibly capable leadership team during WW2.
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Post by 11SQNLDR on Dec 29, 2022 20:50:39 GMT 12
Thanks to Gibbo's endorsement and this thread I now have a copy of Vincent Orange's book 'Coningham' on its way to me for the princely sum of $27 including postage (thanks Aus eBay ) I'm a big fan of the late Professor Orange's work & whilst I know a bit of 'Mary' Coningham's achievements this book sounds like a great read and will be a valued part of my collection.
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Post by gibbo on Dec 30, 2022 8:33:30 GMT 12
Thanks to Gibbo's endorsement and this thread I now have a copy of Vincent Orange's book 'Coningham' on its way to me for the princely sum of $27 including postage (thanks Aus eBay ) I'm a big fan of the late Professor Orange's work & whilst I know a bit of 'Mary' Coningham's achievements this book sounds like a great read and will be a valued part of my collection. Cool, I think you'll be glad you did... fascinating read! A real character who made good from dodgy parents! I love the family side of these stories, gives a good balance to the picture of who they were. In his case a real shame he didn't get to live longer than he did... at least he lived long enough to be lauded as he was. I agree with your comments on Vincent Orange's work... he wrote some damn good bio's!
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