Youth Offender Camps

[ams888]

Disclaimer I am not advocating one way or the other on the following policy or any political parties...

After reading the latest National policy regarding putting criminal offending youth in Defense Force run boot camps it has made me wonder:

• Can the government command the defense force to do this sort of thing?
• Does the Defense Force get notification, or input in such policy discussions or does the leadership sort of find out like the rest of us?
• Does the Defense Force even want to run youth camps for criminal youth?

It might be naivety on my part speaking but i would have thought this sits a bit outside the Defense Force's current roles and responsibilities and dealing with the complexities of youth offenders would require some quite specialized roles and additional training i would suspect.

[30sqnatc]

Clearly National hasn't got a clue just how broken Defence is. Talk about the proverbial last straw that broke the camels back.

[tbf2504]

The government can direct the NZDF to undertake this role as it sees fit. All members of the NZDF are in the end public servants employed by the government.
The question on how successful this programme could be will as I see it depend on:
1. the attitude of those being forced to attend the course. Noting than unlike when I joined the air force in 1964, threat of physical violence, intimidation etc by instructors (common in our day) cannot be condoned in our
PC world.
2. At the conclusion of any of these courses, there must be a path-ahead for these "reformed" offenders, otherwise they will go back into the very environment that sponsored their bad behaviour in the first place.
3. Does the NZDF have the facilities and staff to conduct these courses, noting the current attrition rate within the NZDF

[Dave Homewood]

Nov 18, 2022 12:44:16 GMT 12 tbf2504 said:

3. Does the NZDF have the facilities and staff to conduct these courses, noting the current attrition rate within the NZDF

For many years the NZDF has been running the Limited Service Volunteer (LSV) programme boot camps for teens at Narrow Neck for years, (is that HMNZS Tamaki? Cannot recall), and before that they were held at RNZAF Base Hobsonville.

They are teens who cannot find employment and get a referral from the Ministry of Social Development, or my understanding is that some have been in minor trouble and have lost their way a bit and can be given a referral to do the course as an option by the courts.

I have talked with a few of the kids who have been through the programme, and they all said they were great for giving them a focus and boosting their confidence, etc. Some even said they'd consider applying for the NZDF as a career.

The Army and the Navy runs those LSV courses I believe. Or it could be ex-Army and Navy civvies? Not sure.

But I doubt it will be much of a stretch for the NZDF to start running these camps specifically for young criminals, assuming that there will also be a mix of MSD and possibly Corrections staff involved too.

The only issue I see is the one that Paul raises about how broken the NZDF is right now with massive numbers of experienced, trained personnel leaving the services and recruiting not replacing them any time soon. The government has royally screwed the NZDF personnel once again with poor working conditions, massive added pressure and stress, lack of pay, etc.

As for the concept, it is not new. Anyone who watched the excellent series Bad Lad's Army in the 2000's will know that these boot camps work pretty well when run well by proper professionals.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lads%27_Army

[retiredav8r]

Very easy to solve, put them in prison where they belong. When they grow up and learn the numerous benefits of being a law bidding citizen, the problems will be reduced.

[30sqnatc]

Nov 18, 2022 15:05:19 GMT 12 retiredav8r said:

Very easy to solve, put them in prison where they belong. When they grow up and learn the numerous benefits of being a law bidding citizen, the problems will be reduced.

I nominate you to run the program as you apparently have all the answers which the rest of us can't see

[machina]

Dave, was going to reference BLA. You hear straight from the horses’ mouths that it’s far and away far more effective than prison, even if it is for TV.

Funnily enough I’m in the middle of watching it again!

[phil]

LSV is delivered in Auckland, Trentham and Burnham, it's tri service and it seems personnel can now remuster to LSV instructor as a trade. Of course every instructor at LSC COY is a qualified tradesperson not employed in his or her primary trade, that they no doubt have spent some years becoming qualified in.

I note National expect these camps to be run on NZDF bases. I'm sure all the airman living in crappy barracks will enjoy watching criminals being housed in new accommodation that will have to be built for them!

[nuuumannn]

First, they have to catch the offenders. If they cannot identify them, then none of this is worth anything.

Detention centres and so forth are not dealing with the larger societal issues at hand. It's closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. Political leaders on both sides need to address the issues that affect communities where these young offenders are likely to come from. Poverty, poor education, high costs of living, lack of housing. Putting young offenders away might stop them from re-offending but it doesn't stop the next generation, or the next, if the bigger societal issues are not dealt with.

[Dave Homewood]

The more I think about this policy, the more I think why exclusively make this just for young serious offenders?

Some National Service would do wonders for all the younger generation. It worked well in the past, and if any generation needs it now, the youth of today definitely do. Discipline, life skills, self respect, fitness, friendships, proud achievements... a great way for kids to become adults. Don't waste those experiences purely on criminals.

Let all the kids experience a year of military life (or the fire or ambulance services), and watch the whole of society suddenly return to the respectful, skilled and go-getter New Zealand we once were, rather than the namby pamby, pampered, lefty woke-indoctrinated bunch that the X-box idle kids we have in society these days.

[Antonio]

Dec 8, 2022 23:24:00 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

lefty woke-indoctrinated bunch that the X-box idle kids we have in society these days.

Hey!
X-box is an olympic 'sport'  

[Dave Homewood]

Seriously? I do not watch the Olympics so have no idea if that is a joke or not.

[Antonio]

Yep, joke it was however, seriously yes.
Gaming was part of the olympics.
Sad, sad world.......

[Dave Homewood]

Oh dear.

[errolmartyn]

Dec 8, 2022 23:24:00 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

. . . Let all the kids experience a year of military life (or the fire or ambulance services), and watch the whole of society suddenly return to the respectful, skilled and go-getter New Zealand we once were . . .

Ah yes, 'the Good Old Days'! Well, i guess they seemed so until one thinks back to the likes of a dentistry experience 40 or 50 years ago compared to today . . . or the amount of unreported wife/partner/children-bashing that went on courtesy of some of those who had a different view as to how their learned Discipline should be demonstrated!

Cheers,
Errol

[Deleted]

I imagine one of the big factors would be weighing up the cost of such a programme compared to that of the damage/harm inflicted. My gut reaction is that it's a good idea in some cases - my time working in Youth Court showed LSV participants to have low recidivism, but that's going back some time and it's not like I committed such stuff to memory (I left work at the door as I left each day) and not every case which appeared would be suited to such a penalty.

Dec 9, 2022 13:17:59 GMT 12 errolmartyn said:

Dec 8, 2022 23:24:00 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

. . . Let all the kids experience a year of military life (or the fire or ambulance services), and watch the whole of society suddenly return to the respectful, skilled and go-getter New Zealand we once were . . .

Ah yes, 'the Good Old Days'! Well, i guess they seemed so until one thinks back to the likes of a dentistry experience 40 or 50 years ago compared to today . . . or the amount of unreported wife/partner/children-bashing that went on courtesy of some of those who had a different view as to how their learned Discipline should be demonstrated!

Careful Errol, don't go pointing out the negatives of The Good Old Days unless you're ready to cop a lot of declinist flak On the bright side it's easy enough to stop reading and move on (unlike in person)!

[Dave Homewood]

The costs would not be that high, when you consider how much the nation would save in court and jail costs if a scheme was training young people how to act with proper respect in society. I believe it would be self sustaining and probably save money. Also the people who ask where would the NZDF staff come from? You'd only need to start with a cadre of existing staff. As the scheme goes on, they could offer roles in the system to successful participants. I am sure a certain number of those who have been through it and realise what a difference it makes would be interested in sharing that experience with others as future instructors for the boot camps. And others would take up a career in the rest of the regular forces too. It would be a darned sight more successful at recruiting young people than the NZDF recruitment is doing right now with their pathetic website and posters in malls.

[Dave Homewood]

As for Errol's comment, I am not sure what dentistry has to do with the topic. And I am sure there is just as much, if not a lot more, assaults happening nowadays, especially with the incredible economic pressures, societal division and crime spirally out of control under the current administration.

[phil]

Dec 8, 2022 23:24:00 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

The more I think about this policy, the more I think why exclusively make this just for young serious offenders?

Some National Service would do wonders for all the younger generation. It worked well in the past, and if any generation needs it now, the youth of today definitely do. Discipline, life skills, self respect, fitness, friendships, proud achievements... a great way for kids to become adults. Don't waste those experiences purely on criminals.

Let all the kids experience a year of military life (or the fire or ambulance services), and watch the whole of society suddenly return to the respectful, skilled and go-getter New Zealand we once were, rather than the namby pamby, pampered, lefty woke-indoctrinated bunch that the X-box idle kids we have in society these days.

People seem to thing CMT was some kind of social service, it wasn't. It was aimed at providing sufficient numbers of basically trained personnel that could be called up at short notice to respond to NZ's commitment to provide a Brigade(?) size contingent to the UK's far east forces. It was dropped because that was no longer relevant, and the Army had become a professional regular force, something it was not up until the 1950s and the passing of the Army act. Before that it was a citizen force that relied on a small professional cadre of SNCOs and Officers, and enlistment of civilan volunteers 'for the duration' to respond to our overseas requirements (Japan, Korea) the use of conscription to provide troops for overseas service being relatively limited, to the two world wars. CMT was not ever there to provide discipline, self respect blah, blah, blah.

NZ does not need, nor can it afford, a large reservist force, which is what CMT is meant to generate. It serves no purpose, and you can't take people away and force them into military service if there is no useful military output that their training will meet.

[nuuumannn]

Dec 9, 2022 20:23:43 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

And I am sure there is just as much, if not a lot more, assaults happening nowadays, especially with the incredible economic pressures, societal division and crime spirally out of control under the current administration.

As if the opposition party would or could do anything differently under the circumstances, Dave (can we have less "party" politics, please?). The reality of the situation is that any political party in power right now would be faced with the same predicament. This "crime wave" is not the result of the incumbent party's deficiencies but the circumstances from a world changing event combined with years of neglectful policies from both sides of the political spectrum.

Putting kids into camps sounds like a great idea, but once those camps are full, what next? Build more? Do we turn this country into another USA, the country with the largest percentage of its population incarcerated because successive governments won't do anything to combat societal issues plaguing the less fortunate?