Masters of the Air

[Dave Homewood]

In the opening of Episode 3, the commander claims that their maximum effort of three Air Task Forces, totalling 376 heavy bombers and 240 fighters. He then claims it to be, "the largest air armada ever assembled in the history of mankind".

I am confused. The RAF began mounting 1,000 bomber raids in May 1942, over a year before this series is set.

[ErrolC]

Feb 15, 2024 18:11:50 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

In the opening of Episode 3, the commander claims that their maximum effort of three Air Task Forces, totalling 376 heavy bombers and 240 fighters. He then claims it to be, "the largest air armada ever assembled in the history of mankind".

I am confused. The RAF began mounting 1,000 bomber raids in May 1942, over a year before this series is set.

Some of the misleading information presented in the show can be understood as the perceptions and propaganda of the time and people involved. But they don't seem to be using any of the available techniques to correct the resulting misconceptions.

[Dave Homewood]

Just waiting for one of them to make derogatory statements about Monty... an old favourite trope of Spielberg/Hanks, which is always so wide of the mark it's plain silly.

[hardyakka]

Very informative "B-17 Gunners" video. As he said at the end, "this includes survivorship bias".
If an aircraft failed to return, there is no easy way of determining whether or not friendly fire contributed to that loss. It is possible (but hopefully unlikely) that friendly fire was a major contributor to aircraft downing. However that can't really be measured reliably.

[Dave Homewood]

And I am pretty sure if an air gunner realised their fire had hit and destroyed one of their own planes it was in formation with, they likely will not have admitted that in the debrief.

[angelsonefive]

Feb 15, 2024 18:11:50 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

In the opening of Episode 3, the commander claims that their maximum effort of three Air Task Forces, totalling 376 heavy bombers and 240 fighters. He then claims it to be, "the largest air armada ever assembled in the history of mankind".

I am confused. The RAF began mounting 1,000 bomber raids in May 1942, over a year before this series is set.

That the air armada would be a huge formation of aircraft whereas Bomber Command did not fly in formation at night is probably what the commander was thinking of.

[Dave Homewood]

Maybe, and I see what you're saying, but if that is what was meant it is tenuous.

The phrase 'air armada' indicates a group of planes that fly together for a specific purpose and operating under a specific command. The aircraft in a bomber stream were all operating together for a specific purpose, under a specific command, to make a saturation attack on a specific target, in this case under the control of RAF Bomber Command. They were flying together, albeit slightly spaced out for safety's sake.

The word Armada is Spanish and simply means 'armed'. There is no connotation that the ships or aeroplanes of an armada must be tightly packed in together.

[Calum]

Feb 15, 2024 18:11:50 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

In the opening of Episode 3, the commander claims that their maximum effort of three Air Task Forces, totalling 376 heavy bombers and 240 fighters. He then claims it to be, "the largest air armada ever assembled in the history of mankind".

I am confused. The RAF began mounting 1,000 bomber raids in May 1942, over a year before this series is set.

Well, no commander ever used Hyperbole to try and rev up his men before. Perhaps you're just reading to much into it.

[Dave Homewood]

Feb 19, 2024 14:05:43 GMT 12 Calum said:

Perhaps you're just reading to much into it.

Or perhaps I am concerned that the biggest television event of the decade, that will be watched by hundreds of millions of people around the world, and will be looked to as an absolute go-to record of how it really was, is putting across misinformation and doing the RAF's history a disservice. I mean, it is not the first time a Spielberg-Hanks production has done that to British military history in their dialogue...

[Calum]

Feb 19, 2024 18:30:10 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

Feb 19, 2024 14:05:43 GMT 12 Calum said:

Perhaps you're just reading to much into it.

Or perhaps I am concerned that the biggest television event of the decade, that will be watched by hundreds of millions of people around the world, and will be looked to as an absolute go-to record of how it really was, is putting across misinformation and doing the RAF's history a disservice. I mean, it is not the first time a Spielberg-Hanks production has done that to British military history in their dialogue...

A couple of points.,

Firstly it's entertainment not a documentary. Good entertainment (I hope because I've not seen it yet) based on pretty good history (like the other Hanks/Speilberg productions) but entertainment nonetheless. And to be honest I expect the vast majority of viewers will have some interest in WW 2 to begin with. In a house of 5 adults I am the only one remotely interested in it. The rest of my family wont watch a minute of and I suspect they're typical. it's not the 1980s with 3 TV channels to choose from. Their are far mre entertainment mediums available to people today so I suspect "Biggest television event of the decade" is a slight overstatement.

Secondly it's made for American Audience , based on a book about the the USAAF. So it's hardly surprising there is little mention, if any of the RAF. I've read the book twice and don't recall much about bomber command bar the discussions between Harris, Le May etc. It's not about the combined Bomber offensive.

And thirdly there is a good argument to be made the USAAF's Daylight Air Campaign was far more effective in ending the war in Europe than the British Night campaign because it forced the Luftwaffe to come up and fight in mass which led directly to it's destruction. That doesn't downplay the courage of the commonwealth aircrew but we shouldn't look at their/our contribution through rose tinted glasses.

It seems like you have some inferiority complex regarding the American effort in WW2 Dave.

[Dave Homewood]

You are the one clearly reading too much into this. All I did was question a bogus statement in the dialogue.

I have never said anything against the USAAF effort, nor compared its results with that of RAF Bomber Command. I fully respect what those guys did and respect the massive effort they made.

Whilst made for an American audience, it is being watched around the globe. There is absolutely no doubting that.

As for television event of the decade, they invested US$250 million into the series. A little bit more than the finale of Married At First Sight or The Bachelor. I stand by my claim.

And yes, it actually is a documentary. Dramatic recreations of history based on factual happenings and real people are absolutely a documentary, it actually is a genre of documentary. That is one of the main genres within documentary. I know this from my documentary film making studies at university. By the way, mindless "reality" bullshit TV shows like the two I mentioned above are also a form of documentary.

And I can guarantee this series will be held up in future years to come as a go-to series for people to watch to learn about the history if the Mighty Eighth's campaign. 

As far as any dramatic recreation of the Eighth Air Force's air war I have seen, this is by far the most detailed and accurate. It has a few things that historians are picking up on as 'wrong' or 'licence', but overall it is above and beyond any other representation ever made before to show what the air combat was like, according to the experts in that field and also the veterans who have seen it. It lacks the cheese factor of Memphis Belle.

The fact remains that the RAF was doing 1000+ bomber raids a year before the series was set. Whether it was an error by the script writer or meant to be the character using hyperbole as you suggest, we shall never know. But i was not saying anything against the USAAF.

And my quip about the Spielberg-Hanks productions' proclivity for openly doing down the efforts of a certain British commander in several productions was a comment aimed at them, not the WWII servicemen.

By the way, watch this series if you can. Like all the Spielberg-Hanks series', there may be a few nitpicks but overall it is a magnificent telling of history.

[planecrazy]

Really enjoying this show, just watched the most recent episode last night, a moment that struck things home
when the flak stopped and they knew that the fighters were coming, must have been terrifying.

There was also a scene when bits of B17s as in wings, engines and tail sections drifting earthwards in slow
motion and the reactions of the crews who saw this. Huge respect for these young men who gave so much.

Can't wait till the next episode......

[Calum]

Feb 20, 2024 14:51:46 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

You are the one clearly reading too much into this. All I did was question a bogus statement in the dialogue.

I have never said anything against the USAAF effort, nor compared its results with that of RAF Bomber Command. I fully respect what those guys did and respect the massive effort they made.

Whilst made for an American audience, it is being watched around the globe. There is absolutely no doubting that.

As for television event of the decade, they invested US$250 million into the series. A little bit more than the finale of Married At First Sight or The Bachelor. I stand by my claim.

And yes, it actually is a documentary. Dramatic recreations of history based on factual happenings and real people are absolutely a documentary, it actually is a genre of documentary. That is one of the main genres within documentary. I know this from my documentary film making studies at university. By the way, mindless "reality" bullshit TV shows like the two I mentioned above are also a form of documentary.

And I can guarantee this series will be held up in future years to come as a go-to series for people to watch to learn about the history if the Mighty Eighth's campaign. 

As far as any dramatic recreation of the Eighth Air Force's air war I have seen, this is by far the most detailed and accurate. It has a few things that historians are picking up on as 'wrong' or 'licence', but overall it is above and beyond any other representation ever made before to show what the air combat was like, according to the experts in that field and also the veterans who have seen it. It lacks the cheese factor of Memphis Belle.

The fact remains that the RAF was doing 1000+ bomber raids a year before the series was set. Whether it was an error by the script writer or meant to be the character using hyperbole as you suggest, we shall never know. But i was not saying anything against the USAAF.

And my quip about the Spielberg-Hanks productions' proclivity for openly doing down the efforts of a certain British commander in several productions was a comment aimed at them, not the WWII servicemen.

By the way, watch this series if you can. Like all the Spielberg-Hanks series', there may be a few nitpicks but overall it is a magnificent telling of history.

Fair enough. I;m looking forward to all episodes being available before I sign up to Apple TV

[chinapilot]

Not withstanding the if and buts regarding the different Allies bombing strategies, just about every night and morning young men strapped themselves into their respective types and flew off to attack ‘Fortress Europe ‘….

The RAF disappeared off individually in a semblance of formation into the relative sanctuary of the night whilst the USAAF relied on daylight tight formations and collective defence from such.

At least there is a series loosely based on actual characters showing warts and all, and of course it is going to be USA concentric as its about one of the USAAF Bomb Groups, not an RAF one.

Think we should be happy that the aerial version of the BofB and The Pacific has finally made it to the screen.

[Dave Homewood]

There is a good presentation here from Dan Ellin, who I had on the Wings Over Britain Show last year, talking about the myths around the USAAF and RAF bomber campaigns.

[rodm]

OK, this post is a couple of weeks in the making. I enjoyed Episode 5 (the Münster raid of 10th October 1943) but wanted to see for myself how accurate the portrayal was, by doing some deep-dive archival research. Luckily, there is enough archival documentation available from NARA and BAMA, and Fold3 (without having to pay for archival material not available online) to form a reasonable picture of events. This archival material is supplemented by information from some of the wonderful Bomb Group association websites.

Firstly, for anyone that can still view episode 5, I will make some comments based on particular parts of the episode, which I'll roughly identify by a timestamp.

03:24
Blakely crew returns. This was the crew of Maj. John B. Kidd / Capt. E.E. Blakely in B17 42-3393 Just-a-Snappin' in which 1st Lt. Harry H. Crosby was the navigator (bearing in mind the series is partly based on Crosby's autobiographical account, "A Wing and a Prayer: The "Bloody 100th" Bomb Group of the US Eighth Air Force in Action Over Europe in World War II").

Someone asks: “Where did you land?” Crosby replies: “Some R.A.F. field outside of London.” Capt. Joseph H. "Bubbles" Payne asks: “Why the hell didn’t you call?” 1st Lt. Harry Crosby replies: “R.A.F. base didn’t have a telephone.”

The Blakely crew crash-landed at RAF Ludham in Nofolk. Ironically, if you draw a straight line from RAF Ludham to London, Crosby's home base at Thorpe Abbots, is roughly 40 kilometers closer to London. RAF Ludham was non-operational at the time of the crash landing, hence why there would be no telephone. It was used by RAF Fighter Command earlier in 1943 and would be taken over by the Americans later in 1943.


19:18
IMHO, the GCI scene of the air armada approaching the coast from ground level exhibits a very common fault with some CGI throughout the series – the aircraft fly too fast. It looks unnatural (an earlier episode had two German single-engined fighters zipping past a B17 formation while climbing a couple of thousand feet from the seven O'clock position).


20:08
The 100th BG are shown flying alone, with the 95th BG some distance ahead and the 390th BG some distance behind. This is either a fabrication or someone really screwed the pooch on the flight from England to the Dutch coast.

Let's start with the 100th BG. They flew in a standard Combat Box.

Capt. John D. Brady / Maj. John C. "Bucky" Egan flew at the head of the Lead Squadron of five B17s (i.e. excluding one abort). 2nd Lt Robert Rosenthal flew on Brady's right.

A High Squadron of five B17s (excluding two aborts) flew above, to the right, and slightly in trail of the Lead Squadron. A Low Squadron of three B17s (excluding one abort) flew below, to the left, and slightly in trail of the Lead Squadron.

The 100th BG was one of three Bomb Groups making up the 13th Combat Bombardment Wing (H). The 13th CBW Combat Box was supposed to fly a formation on the Münster mission that mirrored the individual Bomb Group Combat Boxes. The 95th BG was the Lead Group at 24,000 feet altitude. The 390th BG was the High Group at 25,000 feet, above, to the right, and slightly in trail of the Lead Group. The 100 BG was the Low Group at 23,000 feet, below, to the left, and slightly in trail of the Lead Group.

The 13th CBW was the lead Combat Wing of the 3rd Bombardment Division on the Münster mission. Four other Bomb Groups in two Combat Bombardment Wings of the 3rd Bombardment Division flew at least four miles behind the 13th CBW.


21:43
The P-47 escort departs just before crossing Dutch coast. Anyone else have a real WTF moment? The two biggest screw ups of the entire episode are that the geography of the Münster mission is completely off, and the episode absolutely whitewashes what really happened with the escorting P-47s.

Firstly, here is the briefed route to be flown by the 13th CBW and 3rd BD:

Felixstowe, UK - Visschershoek (roughly 42 km S.W. of The Hague) on the Dutch coast - 13 km S.W. of Utrecht - Dorsten, Germany - Haltern am See - Appelhülsen - Münster - (homeward) Bad Bentheim - Arnhem - Dutch coast at Noordwijk.

I don't have a copy of the op order for the 3rd Bomb Division, but I do have the one for the 1st Bomb Division, flying fifteen minutes behind the 3rd BD to Münster. I expect the fighter escort plan between the two Bomb Divisions to more or less be the same. From this op order, it's clear that NO resources were wasted to providing a fighter escort over the channel to the Dutch coast. For the 1st BD:

Outward:
a) One P-47 Fighter Group to rendezvous with the bombers just east of Rotterdam and escort to the limit of their range.
b) One P-47 Fighter Group to rendezvous with the bombers at Haltern am See through to the target area and then to the limit of their range.

Homeward:
c) Two P-47 Fighter Groups to rendezvous with the bombers just north of Octrup and escort to the limit of their range.
d) Five R.A.F. Spit IX Squadrons to rendezvous with the bombers just south of Amsterdam and escort as far as the middle of the Channel.

What REALLY happened to the 13th CBW was the planned outward Fighter Group escorts did not show up due to poor weather and bad timing. Various VIII AF reports state that this gap in fighter cover was exploited by the Luftwaffe for 23 minutes (roughly 14.55 pm to 15.15 pm) until the homeward P-47 Fighter Group escorts rendezvoused with the remaining bombers of the 13th CBW roughly near Altenberge. The P-47s then took a toll on the Luftwaffe. The episode doesn't acknowledge this intervention by the P-47 fighter escort north-west of Münster and whitewashes the outward P-47 fighter escort not doing its job.

ADDENDUM: Reading through the 95th BG (Lead Group) crew reports, the 13th CBW was apparently escorted by P-47s until just before the I.P. near Haltern am See. The relieving FG didn't show up to continue escort up to the target. Here's some extracted comments about the Luftwaffe fighter attacks: "Just before I.P. at 14.54 24,000'. Stayed with us until 15.16 ... would fly alongside of us and then pull up in front and attack head on. Would attack from all round the clock." "Under constant attack from I.P. to where 47's picked us up on way back." "E/A attacked after P-47s left. 51 45 N, 07 12 E. Stayed 1/2 hour till withdrawal escort picked up formation."


22.41
A crewman exclaims: “Flak got Aw-r-go, they’re going down.”

Well, this is contradicted several minutes later since B17 42-30725 Aw-r-go was piloted by Capt. Charles B. Cruikshank who becomes the lead crew after Brady/Egan go down. Aw-r-go exploded mid-air AFTER dropping bombs on Münster, and crashed near Lienen, 15 miles NE of Münster.


22:49
A crewman exclaims: “Stymie’s goin’ down.”

B-17 42-3237 Stymie piloted by 2 Lt. John F. Stephens made a belly-landing Holthausen, near Ramsdorf, Germany (176 km from the Dutch coast!) circa 15.15 hrs after presumably turning back and trying to get home. I don't know when they were actually hit.


22:53
As the 100th BG crosses the Dutch coast, a crewman states: "three minutes to I.P." Like, WTF? The I.P. was roughly near Dorsten or Haltern am See, around 35 km S.W. of Münster and 225 km from the Dutch coast! Route maps for the 95th and 388th BGs show the flying time from the Dutch coast to the I.P. was around 40 minutes, not three....


24.00
Brady's navigator states: “Navigator to pilot, we’re over the I.P. Turn to 057.”

They then make a right-hand turn instead of a left-hand turn. I assume the producers/animators confused turning onto 057 magnetic (from a heading of roughly 080-090 magnetic) with turning 57 degrees from the nose of the aircraft.


26:53
Capt. John D. Brady / Maj. John C. "Bucky" Egan in damaged B17 42-30830 M'lle Zig Zig decide to leave the formation. The rest of the Lead Squadron then screwed the pooch badly. It precipitated the disintegration of the 100th BG as a cohesive formation.

1 Lt. John K. Justice piloted a B17 in the High Squadron. The following post-war account is from the 100th Bomb Group Foundation (100thbg.com):

Munster Raid by John Justice

"We were over Germany and had been under attack for some time when the group leader was hit and caught fire. The pilot performed the prescribed procedure of putting his nose down and getting away from the formation. His wing man, according to procedure, should have take over the lead formation, instead, all five ships in his squadron followed him down, leaving our squadron with three aircraft and the high squadron with three aircraft. The Germans immediately came in at all of us and split the remaining formation all over the sky. We found ourselves completely alone. I observed a group to our left returning from the target area. They were some five or six miles away and lower so we dove to meet them and joined their formation taking a position between all three squadrons. It was a presumably safe place and we headed homeward. Shortly, a Jerry attacked this group and was aiming, I am sure, at the lead aircraft. Instead, he hit our No. 4 engine with a 20mm shell, which completely knocked it out and sent us in a fast spin.

Navigator Capt. Frank D. Murphy, Navigator in Cruickshank's Lead Squadron B17 42-30725 Aw-r-go, again courtesy of the 100th Bomb Group Foundation (100thbg.com):

"I have talked to Charlie Cruikshank a lot lately. He feels, as do I, that what essentially did us in at Munster on 10 October 1943 was the lead airplane, Brady and Egan, getting knocked out on the bomb run. We were the deputy lead and followed John down as he sank for perhaps as long as 10-15 seconds not knowing how badly he was hit, even though he was streaming smoke and fluids. We then pulled up and continued the bomb run but all this, I feel, disrupted the integrity of the 100 BG formation and gave the swarms of Luftwaffe fighters buzzing like bees all around us the opening to take us on individually. You know the rest of the story."

It's worth quoting the VIII Bomber Command HQ narrative report here:

"The 3rd Bombardment Division encountered the most violent and concentrated attacks yet made on its formations. The attacks lasted forty-five minutes and from 200-250 enemy fighters were engaged. The concentrated attacks occurred from the I.P. through the target until fighter escort was picked up. The enemy fighters were FW-190s, Me-109s, JU-88s, Me-210s and Me-110s. In attacking they concentrated on one group at a time, first flying through the lead group to attack the 100th group. The attacking a/s flew parallel to formations, out of range, in groups of 20 to 40 stacked in echelon down. They then peeled off, singly, or in pairs, in quick succession to attack the lowest members of the formation. Two minutes after the concentrated attack on the 100th group began, the formation was well broken up and in seven minutes the entire group was completely destroyed or dispersed. Twin-engine fighters appeared to remain out of range, firing explosive cannon shells from 200 - 1500 yards. JU-88s attacked with rockets from 800 -1000 yards. A new feature was the use of enemy bombers, DO-217s and DO-215s, which flew parallel to the formation and fired rockets from 1500 yard range."

Firstly, the episode didn't show ANY twin-engined fighters and secondly, the actual Luftwaffe twin-engined types employed were Me-110s and Me-410s from Zerstörergeschwadern 1 and 26. Claims and losses of ZG 1 and 26, along with the war diary of ZG 26 indicate they didn't really attack the B17s until after bomb release. I'm not aware of any single-engined fighters firing rockets, only twin-engined fighters. The P-47s of the homeward fighter escort decimated the Me-110 and Me-410 formations, claiming at least 11 destroyed north and north-west of Münster. I can account for ten Me-110 and Me-410 losses in Luftwaffe records, plus another three with significant damage.

27.37
The Rosenthal crew state: “Cruikshank moving into lead position.” Hold on! Wasn't that B17 shot down earlier in the episode? : )

As mentioned, B-17 42-30725 Aw-r-go piloted by Capt. Charles B. Cruikshank crashed near Lienen, 15 miles NE of Munster, circa 15.18-15.20 pm


29:00
The argument between Egan and Brady before baling out really happened.

33.00
Cruicksank hit. Fw190s weren’t firing rockets, Bf110s of Zerstörergeschwader 1/26 which attacked B17s AFTER bomb release.

33:27
CGI of B17 getting hit. I believe it's the second time that CGI has been used in series. It reminds me of footage of a Nike Missile test against a B17 drone:


(2:13 minute mark)

The incident supposedly witnessed by the Rosenthal crew did NOT involve the 100th BG.

The incident as shown occurred between 390th BG B17s 42-3328 Miss Fortune, piloted by 1st Lt. Wade E. Sneed Jr, and 42-3415 Mis Behavin, piloted by 2nd Lt George E. Starnes. The 390th BG was the High Group in the 13th CBW formation.

Miss Fortune was hit by a Luftwaffe rocket while flying the homeward route and then collided with Mis Behavin. Both B17s crashed near Burgsteinfurt, roughly 28 kms N.W. of Münster, circa 15.15-15.30 hrs. Four crew from Miss Fortune (hit by the rocket before colliding) survived, but only one man survived from Mis Behavin.

Other 390th BG crews reported the incident thus:

"328 was hit by a rocket which blew tail off. 328 then collided with another B-17 just above it. Accident occurred just after target was reached. Both ships crumbled up. No parachutes observed."

"At 1515, fighters with rocket guns attacked formation. Two B-17s collided mid-air after one was hit by a rocket. Planes seemed to explode."

"Starnes ship and 328 in mid-air collision. Tail of 328 broke in pieces. Saw no chutes."

It's probably worth pointing out that the 100th BG didn't only have 13 B-17s in its formation. 390th BG B17 42-3302 Rick-O-Shay, piloted by 1st Lt. Edward W. Weldon Jr, took off late after a mechanical problem and ended up joining the 100th BG Combat Box. The B17 was shot down along the homeward route, crashing near Freren, 37 miles N of Münster, circa 15.30.

According to the episode, only the Rosenthal crew remained from the 100th BG shortly after the bombing of Münster. In actual fact, at least one other 100th BG B-17 was airborne - Pasadena Nina piloted by 1 Lt. John K. Justice.

BY using surviving German Flak claim records (for accurate times) and the American MACRs, it's possible to build a rough picture of what happened to the 100th BG aircraft.

B-17 42-3433 (High Squadron)
Leona
2 Lt. Robert P. Kramer
Crashed near Castle Lembeck, N of Dorsten, 50 km SW of Münster, circa 14:56.

B-17 42-30823 (Low Squadron)
Invadin' Maiden
2 Lt. Charles D. Walts
Crashed at Wildermann’s Farm, Hohenhalte, 12 km W.N.W of Münster, circa 15:06.

B-17 42-30734 (High Squadron)
Slightly Dangerous
2 Lt. Charles H. Thompson
Crashed near Walingen, near Havixbeck, 12 km W.N.W. of Münster (very close to Invadin' Maiden), circa 15:06.

B-17 42-3237 (Lead Squadron)
Stymie
2 Lt. John F. Stephens
Belly-landed near Holthausen, circa 15:06 - 15.12.

B-17 42-30830 (Lead Squadron)
M'lle Zig Zig
Capt. John D. Brady / Maj. John C. "Bucky" Egan
crashed 2 km N of Nottuln, 17 km W.S.W. of Münster, circa 15.08.

B-17 42-30023 (Low Squadron)
Forever Yours II
Lt. Edward G. Stork
Crashed at Amelsbüren, 9 km W.S.W. of Münster, circa 15:13.

B-17 42-30087 (High Squadron)
Shack Rat
2 Lt. Maurice E. Beatty
Crashed at Wynen/Xanten, 90 km W.S.W. of Münster, circa 15:15


B-17 42-30047 (Lead Squadron)
Sweater Girl
1 Lt. Richard B. Atchison
Crashed Schirlbeverstrang, E of Ostberven, 19 km E.N.E. of Munster, circa 15.18 - 15:23.

B-17 42-30723 (High Squadron)
Sexy Suzy, Mother of Ten
2 Lt. William M Beddow
crashed in the Vinneberger Forest, E of Ostbevern, 24 km E.N.E. of Münster, circa 15.18 - 15:23

B-17 42-30725 (Lead Squadron)
Aw-r-go
Capt. Charles B. Cruikshank
Crashed near Lienen, 31 km N.E. of Münster circa 15.18 - 15.20.

B-17 42-3229 (High Squadron)
Pasadena Nina
1 Lt. John K. Justice
Crashed 3 km E of Harskamp, near Barneveld, Holland, circa 15:41 (note - 1 Lt. Justice evaded capture and returned to the UK)

B-17 22-30090 (Low Squadron)
El P’sstofo
2 Lt. Winton L. MacCarter
Last seen by the Rosenthal crew between Haltern and Munster. All the crew were captured and the MACR and other German records don't give a crash location or time.

Of note...

1. The crew of Lt. Edward G. Stork arrived at the 100th Bomb Group on 26th September 1943 from the 96th Bomb Group. They flew two missions and one abort in three days before being shot down:

08/10/43 BREMEN
B-17 42-30170 "MISS CARRIAGE"/"HOT SPIT"
Returned to the UK on one engine after battle damage. The first B17 crew to do so on one engine.

09/10/43 MARIENBURG
B-17 42-30023 "FOREVER YOURS"
Aborted and returned early. No Mission Credit

10/10/43 MÜNSTER
B-17 42-30023 "FOREVER YOURS"
Shot down by Flak

2. The two 100th BG B-17s that crashed close together W.N.W. of Münster at 15.06 (42-30823 Invadin' Maiden and 42-30734 Slightly Dangerous)... very few Luftwaffe air combat reports survived the war to be archived. However, the Abschussmeldung (air combat report) for Hptm. Walter Hoeckner of Stab II./JG 1 is archived at the Bundesarchiv in Germany. He claimed one of the two B17s (Flak also claimed both), and here is a very rough translation of his report:

"On October 10, 1943 - 14.31 hrs I started with the II./J.G. 1 and I./J.G. 26 for the flight to Münster. At 14.53 hrs, following Y-guidance, I sighted 4 groups of Boeing B 17s and B 40s in JP [LW grid square encompassing W and SW of Münster] and launched the first united attack at 15.00 hrs. During the second closed attack from the right, I was the third aircraft behind the Angriffsführer, Hptm.Hoch, attacked a B 17 on the right wing from the side, dived under the right wing and attacked the last B 17 on the left wing steeply from the rear down to close range. I observed severe fire and dismantling of parts from the right side of the fuselage, right wing connection and engines. When I left directly under the B 17 I received a hit in the engine. The cabin was immediately full of smoke and gasoline fumes, so I got out with the parachute. The impact of the B17, which exploded immediately after my fire, occurred at 15.06 hrs near Hohenholte (12 km NW Münster) in JP3. During the parachute jump, another B17 came from above in steep curves and burst when the right wing was removed, starting 80-100 meters from me (shooting down Uffz. Ruttas). I landed smoothly in a hedge 3 km west of the impact locations of the 2 B17s and my aircraft, which were 800 meters apart."

Witness, Fw. Reimitz, reported:

"On October 10, 1943, I took off as the Kommandeur's wingman to respond to the alarm. After sighting 4 groups of Boeing B 17s and B 40s in JP, the Kommandeur attacked a Boeing from the right side after a united attack by the Gruppe, flew under the right wing and attacked the last Boeing B 17 in the left wing. The attack was carried out from very far back down to close range, so I got the impression that the Boeing had been rammed. Even before I left, I was able to observe how the tailplane and a short section of the fuselage flew away, while at the same time there was a strong fire development on the right side of the aircraft. I continued to observe the Kommandeur's parachute jump and another disintegration of a second Boeing in close proximity to the jump site."

Luftwaffe Flak also claimed the two B-17s:

15.06 Hohenholte I 7,500 Fortress II (claim denied)
15.06 Hohenholte II Fortress II (claim awarded)


Moving on... IMHO, the Rosenthal crew likely would not have made it home but for the arrival of the P-47 escort N.W. of Münster. The P-47s mauled the Luftwaffe fighters, making 20 claims for enemy aircraft destroyed that were credited. This isn't really acknowledged in the episode because it tries to maintain a myth that the P-47s didn't have the range (the Luftwaffe I. Jagdkorps war diary states they employed 346 aircraft, of which 11 were destroyed, 11 were missing, and 7 damaged. That's roughly 22 losses, of which the P-47s shot down 20...)

42:15
Rosenthal debrief scene with the 100th BG CO, Col. Neil B. "“Chick”" Harding.

Firstly, most of the scene is fiction. Harry Crosby was not present, he was on R&R in Bournemouth. Here's an extract from his book:

“We fly south and then west. We see London. We buzz Stonehenge. We land at Bournemouth. The tiny WREN at Flying Control is no longer surprised at what we do. She already has a lorry waiting for us. After a welcome from Louise Harlan, we get rooms and fall into bed. At sixteen-hundred hours, from Louise’s office, I phone the Base. I get Captain Frye. “Did all my friends get back from pass?” I ask. No sound. I know something is wrong. He is trying to figure out how to break the bad news. I come in quick. “Did some of them have a permanent change of station?” “Yes, all but one.” All but one! That means that maybe twenty planes got shot down. The weatherman breaks the code. “Egan’s gone. Your old crew is gone. The whole group is gone. The only one who came back was that new crew in the 418th. They call him Rosie.” I drop the phone. I can’t believe it. Brady, Ham, Davy and Hoerr, all gone. Cruikshank gone. Old southern-boy Murph, gone. All my friends. Every crew who went through training with me in the States is gone. I tell Blake and the crew. They say nothing. They just look at each other. “Okay,” says Old Beady Eyes. “R&R is over. Let’s go home.”

Crosby, Harry H., 'A Wing and a Prayer: The "Bloody 100th" Bomb Group of the US Eighth Air Force in Action Over Europe in World War II'.

During the debrief Col. Harding questions the Rosenthal crew about the fates of the rest of the B-17s. In the scene, the Rosenthal crew acknowledge witnessing two losses:

1. 42-30023 Forever Yours II Lt. Edward G. Stork

“Yes, Sir. They got hit by a rocket early on… ahh,,, it was on fire for a minute or two.”

2. "42-34423" with navigator Capt. Joseph H. "Bubbles" Payne.

The Rosenthal crew never witnessed Stork's fate and the second B-17 is completely fictious. It was added to show Harry Crosby (who wasn't at the debriefing anyway) mourning for his friend, "Bubbles" Payne, who actually died on 28 April 1944.

The Rosenthal crew actually reported the fates of two other B-17s:

1. 42-30090 El P’sstofo 2 Lt. Winton L. MacCarter

"A/C #090 was seen to pull away about halfway between Haltern and Munster with #1 engine and left wing on fire. It was under control when last seen." -- Lt. Rosenthal."

2. 42-30830 M'lle Zig Zig Capt. John D. Brady

“Saw #830 go down about half way from Haltern to Munster. Had a flak hit under ship just in front of ball turret. Radio room was riddled. Looked as though ball turret gunner was being removed when ship peeled off to the left. Ship was under control when last seen. Believe crew could’ve bailed out.” – Lt Rosenthal."

Here's what's mostly reported about the other B-17s:

“On the Operational Mission of 10 October 1943 heavy flak and E/A were encountered. All A/C were lost excepting A/C 42-30087, piloted by 2nd Lt Robert Rosenthal. When last seen A/C of the 100th Bombardment Group were well scattered and being attacked by swarms of enemy fighters. Circumstances of loss of A/C 42-30734 are unknown.”

Lastly, the 95th and 390th BGs of the 13th CBW also suffered losses. The 95th (Lead Group) lost five B-17s, all along the homeward route after bombing. The 390th (High Group) lost eight B-17s, most if not all after bombing as far as I can tell. The rest of the 3rd Bomb Division (following immediately behind the 13th CBW) lost four B-17s.

Anyway, that's my long rant/episode dissection over. I would've liked to have posted some images of original documents etc, but I will leave it all as is...

[errolmartyn]

Perhaps the most puzzling aspect about 'Masters of the Air' is the bizarre title itself (taken from the book upon which the series is apparently based on).
Given the heavy losses that the US daylight heavy bomber force suffered over Western Europe, and especially before the long-range fighter was available to escort them all the way to the target and back again, one would have to ask exactly what were they the 'Masters' of.
If there were any masters of the air then surely that description has to go to the long-range fighter force of the 8th Air Force, especially during 1944 -1945. Although the bomber force was partially used as bait to draw the Luftwaffe into action against them, it was these long-range fighters who were tasked with not only defending the bombers but also seeking out and destroying the Luftwaffe everywhere as an effective fighting force: in the end it was they who truly became Masters of the Air.
Cheers,
Errol

[Dave Homewood]

You make a really good point about the title, Errol. If anything, the 100th BG were more Martyrs of the Air.

[rodm]

Feb 19, 2024 18:30:10 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

Feb 19, 2024 14:05:43 GMT 12 Calum said:

Perhaps you're just reading to much into it.

Or perhaps I am concerned that the biggest television event of the decade, that will be watched by hundreds of millions of people around the world, and will be looked to as an absolute go-to record of how it really was, is putting across misinformation and doing the RAF's history a disservice. I mean, it is not the first time a Spielberg-Hanks production has done that to British military history in their dialogue...

The Spielberg/Hanks pedigree of productions (Saving Private Ryan/Band of Brothers/Masters of the Air) are notorious for disparaging the British military.

I challenge anyone to watch Masters of the Air and find one positive statement about or portrayal of the British military. Without spoiling too much, the only upcoming positive portrayal involves a uniformed member of the opposite sex.

In episode 6, there's a series of completely fictious scenes involving Maj John C. "Bucky" Egan after his capture (the scenes are included to represent the experience of lynched "Terrorflieger"). The first scene has Egan and other captured American airmen transiting under guard through a recently bombed German town/city. Firstly, let me state that when Egan was really captured, the USAAF had just bombed the heck of the centre of Münster and (by mistake) the centre of Coesfeld.

Here's the dialogue as they are escorted by armed guards into the town:

"Think our boys did this?"
"Looks like it just happened... R.A.F."
"Shit! The Brits actually hit something for once."

That exchange pretty much sums up the snide tone of these Spielberg/Hanks productions when referring to the British military effort.

Anyway, I highly recommend anyone interested to read Harry Crosby's, 'A Wing and a Prayer: The "Bloody 100th" Bomb Group of the US Eighth Air Force in Action Over Europe in World War II.' In it, you'll find a different tone describing his Oxford university visit compared to how it's portrayed in the series. The book is worth it for the M*A*S*H/Catch-22-esque "Leafy Hill" story alone...