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Post by steve on Nov 21, 2005 21:00:39 GMT 12
The Kangeroo roundel ....What year was it adopted and did this coincide with the new RAAF ensign...Was there any post WW2 roundels like the RNZAFs silver fern?
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Post by corsair67 on Nov 21, 2005 21:28:55 GMT 12
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 21, 2005 22:05:04 GMT 12
The Catalina looks a lot like a Zero on some angles to badly trained pilots! The Yanks used to attack (and occasionally shoot down) RNZAF aircraft too...
I wonder if there were other options considered when our Kiwi roundel was chosen, like the range of options mentioned for the RAAF.
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Post by steve on Nov 22, 2005 0:38:03 GMT 12
Thanks for that corsair...i am trying to remember from readings when we changed our roundel to the silver fern...i think 1957,,59 ..not sure ...The change to the kiwi came later after much debate from kiwi aircrews being given a hard time ...as the silver fern was being descriped as the "white feather" from foreign air crew in exercises in Singapore etc( I suppsose aussies, poms, mainly) the augument against using the kiwi was always....offcourse you guessed it flightless!
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Post by steve on Nov 22, 2005 0:52:05 GMT 12
NZs options on national air force roundel...I researched this topic extensively in the 1970s and understand that the kiwi was always the first choice and the silver fern rejected amoungst serving staff .....except HQ staff offcourse .... I never came across any alternatives to the kiwi for the centre...(remember the black kiwis on the tails of the canberras at the time of the silver fern roundels)
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Post by steve on Nov 22, 2005 1:03:42 GMT 12
Aussie ww2 reponse to the red centre...result of US trigger happy gunners etc ... was simple...just remove the red and NZ did this to a "point" then adopted the white bars...I believe the RN adopted this id compromise for US forces in the Pacific...did Aussie use white type US bar extensions on the standard roundels?
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Post by corsair67 on Nov 22, 2005 7:56:13 GMT 12
As far as I am aware, the RAAF only used the kind of roundel shown below on the RAAF Museum's CAC Mustang in the SW Pacific area during WW2: Unfortunately, the Silver Fern does tend to look like a feather from a distance: the Kiwi should have been the option chosen when the RNZAF decided to change from the RAF roundel. Even the Skyhawks wore the Silver Fern for a time when they first arrived in NZ, so were there two attempts to introduce this roundel into service in the RNZAF? Yes, some American pilots were known for their 'shoot first, ask questions later' attitude in combat, hence so many RAAF and RNZAF Kittyhawks carrying white painted tails and fuselage bars!
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Post by steve on Nov 24, 2005 0:12:00 GMT 12
I understand that the change was from RAF to modified RAF roundel to the Kiwi insignia was done in house...however there was certainly a lot of dissent from Newspaper clippings i researched in the 70s to the silver "feather". The chief of Air Staff would have had the final say on the matter..and was I suppose it was a natural progession of visual seperation from the RAF and matching the RAAF and canadian style
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Post by corsair67 on Nov 24, 2005 8:37:04 GMT 12
Yep, it just doesn't look right, does it? I think that part of the problem was that because the Silver Fern had to be placed within the 'meatball' it made the fernleaf too small; it looks more like a large white paint chip!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 24, 2005 21:59:27 GMT 12
Imagine if it had remained, on today's low-viz schemes a white or silver fern on black circle would look pretty cool. High Viz Low Viz
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 24, 2005 22:12:41 GMT 12
How about the more traditional coloured low viz roundel for trainers? Not quite the Kiwi is it?
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Post by steve on Nov 25, 2005 0:11:06 GMT 12
Excellent visual effects from the computer...the kiwi still looks the 1st choice ..except maybe the commie look of the NZ "red" stars enclosing a the silver fern...castro would be proud...Nah stay with our kiwi!! Helen was asked what she liked most about the NZ flag...she said that the stars were RED!! unlike the aussie white stars
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 25, 2005 0:59:39 GMT 12
I prefer the red stars (which have white borders of course) to the Aussie whiteones. Their ones look more like Christmas decorations than ours do.
And no, I'm not a commie! hehe
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Post by steve on Nov 25, 2005 1:51:56 GMT 12
I'm getting o/t... you have to admit the aussies are more proud of their flag than us..our flag...it will be a changed.. just a question of when...the four red/white! stars were an ensign up to 1977 to represent NZ at the insistance of the British for naval/maritime purposes only! I am very pro British but more pro NZ nationalism which I reluctantly will give credit to the Labour Govt for.. advancing.....whats wrong with God,King and Country ...Helen supports at least one!!! I would support at least two.. and three maybe...Now that is a boot in each camp howver i wont blindly follow one parties doctrine..
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Post by corsair67 on Nov 26, 2005 14:26:32 GMT 12
Good work, Dave; I was hoping you'd put your artistic talents to work with an alternative Silver Fern roundel. It's interesting to see how well it could have been done, if the Ministry of Defence had thought about it. I still prefer the Kiwi though, and anyway don't the All Blacks (TM) "own" the Silver Fern logo now?!!! As to your comments about the Aussies being more proud of their flag, Steve; that is certainly true and very noticible. In fact, I would say that as far as military history goes most Aussies are more proud of that too than most Kiwis. Okay, I'll sit back and wait for the flames now! ;D
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 26, 2005 17:02:31 GMT 12
I for one am very proud of both NZ's military history and our general history, we have more to be proud of than Australia I think - just my opinion. I am also proud of our flag, and thouhg I love the silver fern on black used as our unofficial flag, for sorting events and the like, the NZ flag is great. I get sick and tired of wingers wanting to change it. If they want a different flag they can move to a different country. I especially hate the old argument that's it's too similar to the Aussie flag, well guess what, we had our's first so they should change theirs (and will do soon I'm sure). I believe strongly in the RNZRSA attitude on the flag KEEP IT THIS WAYRegarding the fern roundel, imagine if we had a night ops squadron, helicopters or something, in all black overall and the silver fern as roundel - that would be cool! Especially for flypasts at rugby games.
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Post by corsair67 on Nov 26, 2005 18:10:30 GMT 12
I too am sick of comments that the Australian or New Zealand flags should be changed because they are too much alike. How many European countries have flags that are just variations of coloured horizontal or vertical stripes? I don't see them all rushing out to change their flags. I don't know about Australia changing it's flag in the near future, as none of the suggested options that I have seen even come close to being better than the current one. We've already had our little brush with Republicanism over here, and that was voted down big time in the referendum as most sane people realise that becoming a republic wouldn't make one iota of difference to the average Australian. Yeah, black choppers with silver ferns: I'd love to see that.
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Post by Bruce on Nov 26, 2005 21:20:32 GMT 12
SPECIAL LEAKED REPORT from beehive (came with the flu shot list...) PMs preferred flag option: Also the roundel for BOTH the RNZAF aircraft: ;D
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Post by corsair67 on Nov 26, 2005 21:40:59 GMT 12
High fives, Bruce! That cracked me up: that is very, very funny. That roundel would be enough to scare even the most hardened enemy away if it was painted large enough on the side of an aircraft.
Even Helen's airbrushed/softened look scares the crap out of most people!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 26, 2005 22:14:30 GMT 12
Bruce, as moderator I am very tempted to remove your post, it made me feel ill, and I know you'll get a very blunt reaction from Steve
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