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Post by corsair67 on Nov 28, 2005 19:43:12 GMT 12
This story which was in the Weekend Australian on 19th November has caused a bit of a stir with some people in Australia.
"LONG-range US bombers will drop live bombs over the Northern Territory in a resumption of strategic bomber training agreed at top-level talks yesterday.
Starting in the new year, American B-52, B-1, and B-2 Stealth bombers, based mainly in Guam, would use the Delamere Air Weapons Range, about 130km south-west of Katherine. Delamere is a vast 211,000ha bombing range used regularly for dropping live weapons by the RAAF and visiting aircraft from other nations engaged in multinational exercises.
The Darwin RAAF base would also be available for the bombers to land and refuel if necessary."
What I was curious to know is whether similar long range bombing operations have ever been undertaken by the US in New Zealand?
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Post by steve on Nov 28, 2005 21:29:31 GMT 12
No way.....I don't believe there has been any live firing here since WW2...not 100 % sure however...heaven forbid ..imagine the reaction for the anti US Brigade...!!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 28, 2005 21:42:13 GMT 12
Steve, the Kaipara firing range and other ranges at Waiouru and other places have had hundreds, probably thousands of live firing excercises constantly since the war. It is probably highly likely that US visitors over the years have also exercised on those RNZAF ranges. I don't know for certain when and by what US planes but it seems logical during the days when they visited that they would have been doing live firing exercises at some point.
I don't know if any long range bombing has been done however Craig. Interesting question.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 28, 2005 21:54:58 GMT 12
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Post by steve on Nov 29, 2005 0:02:14 GMT 12
Come to think of it ....you probably right at ....at least pre 1984...the triad ANZUS exercises well might of involved US attack aircraft using the Kaipara range and others....
o/t Do you believe that US Nuclear tac.(Anti Sub..ASROC) weapons were stored at Kauri Point for a short time during the height of the Viet NAm war?
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Post by steve on Nov 29, 2005 0:18:22 GMT 12
I couldn't help looking at th 15 a4s in flight and on tarmac..great pics ....that just ruined my day...Howard should have taken the gloves off with our govt. over bludging defense expenditure for regional defence contribution especially... for destroying our air combat force...we did our part with the protest march in auckland..2000? and the SOS (save our squadrons) web site etc..
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Post by steve on Nov 29, 2005 0:34:22 GMT 12
Lets pretend that one day NZ spent the same or slightly less of GDP on defence as AUS..ie from 1% to 1.8..2% ...what do you think... ie the Aussie defence planners ..from THEIR perspectives would like to see in the RNZAF makeup as part of a regional defence assets?
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Post by corsair67 on Nov 29, 2005 9:19:25 GMT 12
I think that the ADF would like NZ to play a bigger role in the defence arena, especially in the Pacific and SE Asia. I don't think that Australia necessarily expects NZ to tow the line and get involved in everything that the ADF is involved in (eg. Vietraq), but I think they'd like to see a bit more effort put into improving the equipment and manning of the NZDF, which is now (finally) happening to some (slight) extent. The piecemeal way of doing things just isn't working!
The NZDF is a small but (mostly!) professional outfit that makes do with the resources it has. A very good example of this was the RNZAF strike wing: the A-4K Skyhawks were old aircraft which had been upgraded and could certainly still hold their own in exercises in Australia and SE Asia, due to the training and skill of their pilots and groundcrew. Even though Helen said they were "clapped out" the A-4s still had a role to play, and it still makes me sad when I think of what the RNZAF could have done with the F-16 if they'd got the chance! If the Skyhawks were so "clapped out", then why did the ADF request them being stationed in Darwin when the East Timor deployment was about to begin? I wonder if maybe the ADF knew that if something did happen with Indonesia that the RNZAF pilots would be a great resource to have close at hand to give the Indonesian Navy a kick if the need arose?
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Post by steve on Nov 29, 2005 17:39:45 GMT 12
Yeap..exactly...my son went to Timor twice with NZ Army and this was well discussed in the opening days..The a4s contracted to spook the RAN were an obvious choice at the time to be on standby up north if the indonesan navy took offence..
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Post by corsair67 on Nov 29, 2005 18:01:23 GMT 12
If I was in the Indonesian Navy, I would have been "soiling my rompers" at the thought of going out into the Timor Sea knowing that there were a few Kiwis with "clapped out" Skyhawks, probably armed with Mavericks, 5 inch rockets and high drag bombs, sitting somewhere over the horizon waiting for a chance to have a go at me.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 29, 2005 19:04:57 GMT 12
And NZ has always had good military tie with the Indonesians. Many of their officers have done training in this country, so would be well aware of what our guys were capable, and how awesome their clapped out scooters were.
Clapped out or not, they had been replaced. That's the true crime. I don't mind so much that the A-4K's were taken out of service, that was scheduled anyway. The fact their replacements, the F-16's, and also the Maachis were removed from the equation is what irks me.
I'd like to know the bottom line of, after all is added up, what it has really saved the taxpayer. Considering a cooling of relations with the USA when the deal for the F-16's went sour, the fact we still can't get a trade deal which was then on the cards, and also the massive loss of expertise from the RNZAF and now having a scramble to rebuild, I think it would come down on the balance sheet in the end as a financial bungle extraordiaire.
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Post by corsair67 on Nov 29, 2005 19:15:59 GMT 12
Yep, if only National had had the F-16 deal in the bag earlier...........? I was just thinking that if NZ Govt had any brains they wouldn't have let the Americans bomb any of the ranges on mainland NZ. Imagine letting the Yanks loose on Kaipara; before you knew it there'd be 500lb HE all over Queen St!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 29, 2005 20:23:55 GMT 12
Yes, but using Kiwi logic you give them the grid location for Queen Street, and the bombs fall smack onto Kaipara!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 29, 2005 20:27:21 GMT 12
I remember when i was in the RNZAF there was a report in the newspaper, early 1990's, about a group of local Maoris who lived next to Kaipara range. They were going to have a hangi, and when it came time to put the stones in, one had the bright idea to chuck in some of the 'old iron' over the fence as it would heat up really good. Well, somehow they got over the fence, strolled through the range, picked out some nice big 'suitable' lumps of metal, went back and laid the hangi. Of course, it heated up, and at least one of these lumps was the head of an undischarged shell. I foget all the injuries to the hangi gang, but one apparently lost a hand!
And you think the yanks are thick!
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Post by steve on Nov 30, 2005 0:05:28 GMT 12
...a little o/t...NZ hasn't the same security worries as australia...so the argument goes ... it was Roger Douglas (Finance/Treasuer) in the 80s who stated that if Japan and Canada need only spend 1% of GDP on the defence vote ...NZ could follow suit as part of the PEACE DIVIDEND..the peace dividend should mean peace ...not the excuse to slash core govt obligations (defence/police/health/etc etc) with defence spending cut by half to buy more votes in social handouts for selected peoples..after all 1 % of Japans GDP makes a very powerful self defence force ....1% of NZs samll GDP is simply bludging in regional terms...NZ will never be invaded by air or sea forces however...terroists capability...well you know...any time any where...The threat to AUS is real and any attack on its territory islands or maritime assets should be regarded as an agression on our islands.It is inconceivable that NZ would not be there to help..the argument should be ...with the Red Cross or a significant balanced force that intergrates well...
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Post by corsair67 on Nov 30, 2005 14:23:24 GMT 12
So, the high fat content isn't the only thing to worry about in a Kaipara hangi?
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