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Post by steve on Aug 24, 2006 0:40:02 GMT 12
From my readings and reasearch of the RAAF it appears they changed their air force blue to a more "police Blue: lighter colour and frabic...It certainly appears different from the RNZAF dress code...any thoughts
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Post by flyjoe180 on Aug 26, 2006 9:49:57 GMT 12
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Post by corsair67 on Aug 26, 2006 14:29:20 GMT 12
The RAAF uniform is quite a bit darker than the RAF/RNZAF equivalent, and I believe that this has always been the case. This is a official ADF photo of Air Marshall Angus Houston, Chief of Defence Force, at the 60th Anniversary of VP Day in Canberra last year. As can be seen in this photo the uniform is what I'd call ink blue in colour.
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Post by phil82 on Aug 26, 2006 15:53:58 GMT 12
Err....fellas, that is what the Skippy's used to wear, certainly at the time of WW2, before they went light blue...and were mistaken for everyone from parking wardens to security guards. All the RAAF has done is revert to tradition: good on 'em!
PS: sorry, I've just read that link which bears out the above!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 26, 2006 18:04:26 GMT 12
I'll bite, what is VP day?
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Post by steve on Aug 27, 2006 1:08:20 GMT 12
Well ..thanks for that I had no idea that the RAAF was reverting to the oriiginal RAF style blue/black and the changes i refer to date back to the seventies fashions of lighter colours. Smart dress....The USAF made major changes in the 90s to an RAF style ...however was unpopular and reverted yet again to the general stars and eagles etc... I am sure VP day is Victory in the Pacific day...not recognise here for what ever reason...Please correct me if i have this confused...
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Post by steve on Aug 27, 2006 1:22:27 GMT 12
I believe the RNZAF post war unoffically accepted the tradition that the RAF started at the time of the Battle of Britain ie ... to leave their top button on the ?officer service dress unbuttoned..Did the Aussies follow this same practice...when was it discontinued?..Was only limited to flighter pilots?? not sure...From what I have read the RAFs uniform code was (because it was a young service) very relaxed in their uniform configuations ie polo neck jumpers replacing shirt and tie under the formal tunic....633 squadron stuff! any thoughts
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 27, 2006 2:32:16 GMT 12
The only time I ever had my top button done up in the RNZAF was when wearing a tie. Orherwise shirt top button is always undone. We didn't have battledress tunics though in my day.
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Post by phil82 on Aug 27, 2006 8:39:49 GMT 12
Sorry Steve, but that top button thing was a wartine affectation which very quickly disappeared once the peacetime air force rules came back into force. I certainly never saw it and I was in air force service from the late 50s to the early 80s! A lot of the SWOs [Station Warrant Officers] that I knew would have very quickly corrected any such misdemeanor, belive me!
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Post by Calum on Aug 27, 2006 15:04:41 GMT 12
VP is victory in the Pacific day.
And the RNZAF uniform, particularly the everyday unifrom IMHO looks smarter than the RAAF's
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 27, 2006 16:50:13 GMT 12
IS Victory in the Pacific the new politically correct way of saying the old VJ (Victory Over Japan) Day?
Or has Aussie always caled it that? It's still VJ Day in my books anyway.
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Post by Calum on Aug 27, 2006 23:02:15 GMT 12
It's the new PC way :-)
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 27, 2006 23:04:45 GMT 12
Dear god, in twenty years time the way things are going they'll be trying to cover up the fact there was a war - just like the Japs have.
Mind you thinking about it VE Day is Victory in Europe, not Victory over germany, so you can see some reasoning I guess. No one likes to name names and besmirch reputations...
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Post by steve on Aug 28, 2006 1:52:23 GMT 12
Unbottoned top buttons!..thanks for that info ....i was led to believe that the custom continued for some time...Do we know any more about this custom during ww2...was it just a fighter pilot show?? Those station warrant officers really had the power ...am i right? I suppose young pilot officers etc learnt that quickly ...These day in the navy and army we have positions of Warrant officer of the Navy and Army with large insignia, however the rank is still the same ie WO 1 class whatever....Still they have to salute the young officer...is this still the case...?
VP Day ...today...I suppose the same as the "New Zealand Maori Land Wars" became the New Zealand land settlement discussions ..................................whatever..............................
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 28, 2006 3:47:40 GMT 12
"Those station warrant officers really had the power ...am i right?"
The Base Warrant Officers in my time were scary enough - I'd hate to have seen them in stricter times like the 1930's and 40's.
I can tell you about one if you like as actually got to know one well, after an inauspicious start. When I arrived at Wigram in 1991 like any base you're new at i had to go around most of the base getting signatures to announce my arrival. The unlimate sig on these sheets is always the Base Warrant Officer, but the day i arrived he was away so i never met him, and never knew what he looked like.
Some months later I was still oblivious, and was working away, and as i was stepping out of the Fabric Bay door into the hangar i noticed a Warrant officer wandering into the hangar. He was looking around like he was a little lost. I thought I'd help out. "Hello Sir. Are you looking for Bill?"
"Who?"
"Bill Nicol. The Sergeant."
"Yes. Where is he" I pointed him towards nextdoor. Off he went. I was back in the Fabric Bay still working away when the oor flies open, Bill storms in red in the face, and yells, "Who the f*ck was it?"
"Was what?" we all say in unison.
"Who was the dumb **** who adressed the Base Warrant Officer by using my first name?"
I was like, er, who? You mean that guy that just ame in?
It tured out he'd had Bill on the carpet for lack of discipline allowing a baggie to call him by his first name. Bill had not given him my name, and nor had I, but after that point Warrant Officer Terry Wereta had firmly decided me arse was grass.
Whenever I saw him anywhere it sent a shiver down my spine because he would spot me, yell my name and than yell "Standfast". I'd be stood at attention while he eyeballed my uniform looking for something to find wrong. He did this with others too. (I once saw him spot a guy on a bike riding away from him at at least 200 metres away. He knew who the guy's name somehow and bellowed his name, then loader yelled "Put your f***ing hat on." The entire base heard it I m certain. I had the displeasure of being beside him as this happened!)
The thing was Terry must have spent his days going tough our files and memorising names to faces or something because as I say we were never introduced but by jingoes he knew me!
One day in the winter of 1992 the base routine orders arrived and dammit, I was rostered onto a funeral parade. This happened, but this was no ordinary funeral. It was the ex-Base Commander of Wigram (I think the chap imediately before Gordon Wood, who'd died of cancer). He had also been one of the best friends of Terry Wereta, who happened to be in charge of the military side of the funeral arrangements. So let's say he seemed more highly strung and charged than usual.
It was cold and very wet that week so things didn't look positive, but worse the detail iwas given was Firing Party. I'd never done this before, but thank goodness nor had any other the other seven men detaield. None of us knew Rest on Arms Reversed, nor the commands for firing volleys, etc. We had to practice for hours inside No. 7 hanagr at Camp Pack Up as it was peeing down. No-one could see us in this big enpty space where we were firing blanks off in the practise. Everything was going wrong, everything. Someone would march out of step or turn the wrong way. My rifle jammed then two others jammed. I recall at one point stuffing my drill up. Terry was up like a flash, in my face. "What did you do that for?" This, my friends, s where my fatal mistake occurred, I answered the inutterable lines you NEVER EVER say to a Base Warrant officer, "I don't know Sir."
That was met immediately with a very sharp prod with two fingers between my eyes. It was quick and painful, and then it happnened again, over and over as he began to speak and with each work another short sharp jab hit my forehead or bridge of my nose. "If - (jab) I (jab)..." get the drift. The words stitched together eventually were " If i were to hit you right between the eyese like this, and you asked me why i was hitting you, and I answered 'I don't know', what the f*** would you think of that? Do you get the message?" "YES SIR"
I was beginning to either black out or wish to god i would black out. He then gave me and each other member of the team that invalauble lesson on never ever replying 'I don't know' to any superior inthe military as it's weak and dangerous...
You can imagine he was a little wound up by now.
We eventually got back into the drill practice and then it happened. The worse thing that could happen on that day, in front of that man, in that mood he was in. A really great young airman who was on that parade, one of the coolest, laid back guys you could meet, who'd never hurt a soul and alweays tried to please, named Mitch Button, had somehow, SOMEHOW, in all the confusion, missed firing one of the blanks inhis magazine, or perhaps in his defence one too many were loaded in the mag. We were at attention, giving the general salute, rifles presented in front of our bodies, and poor Mitch's finger must have brushed the trigger. Boom.
It fired a blank and I think it hit the W/O in the heart. In that split second when we were all uttering words that rhymed with clucking bell, and ducking for cover, Terry marched straight up to Mitch, grabbed the SLR rifle, slung it on the hangar floor with a clatter, drew back his fist, swung and hit Mitch across the face with such a force his hat flew about three metres across the hangar.
Suddenly, pure silence, like never before. No-one was breathing, we no longer heard our heartbeats that had been racing, no longer heard the rain, pins could have been dropping but the silence was louder. Then, following the Corporal the rest o us fell back into line, came to attention and stood, in total silence.
What the hell could we do. Here were were with this warrior, a true absolute warrior, who was a direct discendant of Hone Heke and very proud of it. A man who had been in the military for 39 years, who had served in Vietnam AS A WARRANT OFFICER 20+ years before. This man was a god, he was untouchable, and we would never consider hitting him back - you would die, and then after he'd kill you, he'd put you on a charge.
Terry had been so worked up, but he eventually backed off, calmed down and calmly toldus to dismiss for lunch. He left. The Cpl gathered us around and he was a good man, had his head screwed on. He assured us that we all saw nothing. Mitch said he was ok, but shaken. Collectively we all had the right to march straight into the Adj's office and Terry would have been out on his ear for that assault with new regulations that had recently come in for disciplinarians. None of us wanted to see that happen no matter how much we hated him right at that moment. We knew the poor bastard was grieving for his mate and was under a lot of strain. We all went to lunch and agreed to forget it.
After lunch the rain had stopped, the sun was out, and Terry felt better. He had calmed down to his usual level of just yelling loadly. The final practice went much better. No-one got shot, no-one got hit.
The funeral was next (I think next morning). We went along and all we had to do was march up to the graveside, as practiced in the hangar, fire our shots, and ten go into Rest on Arms Reversed. Our drill was perfect - every single one of us. Our firing was in such unison it was as if one shot were being fired. And afterwards terry came up and said he really appreciated it, and that in all honesty we were the best firing party he'd seen at a funeral. A compliment from him.
That was not the end of his seeming dislike for me though.
When Wigram was issued with the Steyr rifles (we were about the last unit to get them) we had a compulsuroy course where everyone on base had to be trained to shoot and clean them. Terry was running this and I was taking some pyros to the armoury when I walked in on him arranging with the armourer (forum member Pegazair) to get the rifles all ready, etc. He asked me if I was looking forward to the shoot. I had decided I could never get round this guy so Id always be honest as i could. So I said no. He bristled! Why not. I told him I was a crap shot and inexperienced and hadn't had a shoot since i joined up. And then I was not much of a shot, only just scraping through with the old SLR's. (in truth I hated firing the bloody things)
He was real angry with my honesty and told me then (and about three more times before the event) he was "keeping an eye on" me.
When the day came a miracle occurred. It turned out I found the Steyr much more ergonomic and fitted my body shape better (the SLR sight hit me in the eye every time I fired it, no matter which position I tried!). The fact that the Steyr had a scope instead of two blocks of metal made it easy to use. And it was easier to clean, etc. I had my five rounds standing, kneeling and lying, then we all had the new experience for the RNZAF, automatic rapid fire. Terry, in charge of the range, had whispered in my ear some nastiness about I'd better not f*** it up, etc.
I fired off my rounds, said a prayer and awaited the official to count the score. He went (out of all the targets) directly to mine. The scorer handed him the results. I watched in horror, slow motion, as I saw him puffing up. He was about to yell. It weren't gonna be good ithought. I was expecting him to say none of my bullets were on target and I'd put them into the target nextdoor (which I have seen happen but thankfully not done myself).
No. He yells "What the F*** is this. Homewood!" by now he's marching up the 22 metre range, briskly. This can;t be good. Oh dear god this can't be good. He reaches me just as I realise the whole place has gone deftly silent and everyone seemed to be looking.
"Homewood! You are a f***ing liar!!!" Hw bawls into my face. I was cold with fear and confusion trying to think what I'd lied about.
He holds up the target and counts the holes I'd made "1. 2. 3. ... 17, 18, 19"
I'd got 19 out of 20 rounds on the target. "You told me just yesterday you can't shoot, you're a **** lier."
All i could do was smile and say I'd never shot like that before inmy life. I swear i saw a twinkle in his eye. Maybe he saw potential in me at last. After the whole base had been throuigh the shoot I later heard from th Base W/O who rang me specially to say that no-one had acheived 20 rounds, and only I and one other, an armourer, had achieved 19 on the automatic. I was stoked.
A little later he visited the Fabric Bay again, but in a completely different frame of mind. He wanted a gold club bag cover made. I was weary (was this a sting-he was trying to catch me doing homers with RNZAF ,aterial on work time... nah couldn't be because i'd done similar for the Base Commander and other high rankers, and it was encouraged as 'training')
Anyway, i made the cover for his golf bag so he could travel wih it on planes (he was in the RNZAF Golf team). He liked it somuch he asked for another for his wife's bag. I knocked it out in a couple of days between real jobs. He was impressed.
Next he's back with a bigger chanllenge. He brings in a standard ALICE pack, the old Vietnam style green backpacks. And he had a special frame from a pack he'd got in Vietnam whilst working with Special Forces there. It was a nice light metal frame and harness arnangment of much better design than the ALICE frame and harness. He asks, is it possible to remove the ALICE frame and fit his special forces frameto the pack. I took a look and did some measuring, and said, "Yes, no problem, but it might thak a few days and I'll call you when i need to do a fitting." He looked taken aback, at the time i didn't know why.
Anyway I was aiming to impress him and so did a particularly tidy job on the revoval of the old pack frame and fitting this really nice light one. Eventually i needed him to try it so he came down to the workshop and I put it on him. He was very impressed, I mean MASSIVELY. He eventually let me in on his secret. He said he'd had that frame since he'd returnedfrom the Vietnam War. he said every time a new guy was posted to the Fabric Section and had been there a little while and settled in, he'd brought down the Alice Pack and his fame and asked them if they could fit it. For two decades every one of them had said it was impossible. No-one was willing to take it on and risk ruining a good Alice Pack.
I felt like I'd just earned my wings or something, I'd somehow beaten all those that wen before and in doing so had turned my rch-nemesis into a friend!
And what a friend. After that I couldn't get rid of him, not that it worried me. It turned out the unthinkable did happen, even the Base W/O used to skive off, and he used to come to my section where I usually worked alone so he'd come see me and regail me with stories of his youth. I used to love it when someone from round base would walk in to drop off a job, all casual like, then see the Base W/O sitting next to me at the sewing machine! He'd usually bark someting like "Stand up straigt to them" and once they'd gone he;d crack up and then get on with his story.
One Friday we'd all decided in the S&S section that we'd have a big cook up. In our Joe Room (smoko section) which was right next to the fabric section and was walktrhough, no door, we had a stove and from early morning some of the guys had put on a big pot of pork and cabbage, or pork and puha as hey were calling it. It was simmering away for hours and we were all going to have a nie big feast for lunch.
However at about 10.30 I spotted him coming down the road. Oh dear, even he wouldn't tolerate us cooking when we should be working I thought. In he bursts "What's going on here?" Max, back to the pot trying to hide it tries to be polite. Terry says "I was walking down the road on my way to some offiial business..." and he's walking forward as hes talking, "and I'm certain I could smell pork and puha wafting out your window!" The game was up, but rather than a bollocking he was rapt and invited himself. We assured him it wouldn't be ready for another hour and a half, but he said no worries as he had nothing to do anyway. he puts his feet up and starts regailing all the biys with his tales.
If the rst of the base could have seen him skiving off from his office down to the S&S smoko room for a few hours till the pork and puha was rady. He loved it too, he ate half the pot! He vowed we should do it again and next hime he's bring the Base Commander, but we never did do it again. The base was closing and Terry retired.
The man was a leend and I'm very proud to have known him. He was, as I said, a real warrior, nad had served his country inore than one conflict. I rememebr him saying about the day he arived at Vietnam, they'd gotten off the plane and were standing beside it, being briefed about where to go next. A shot rang out and the guy beside him dropped dead, hit by a sniper! A rude introduction to a warzone.
Since I left the RNZAF I've never seen him again, despite his desire back then to retire to Cambridge I heard he'd laeter decided to buy a farm near Auckland, but eventually went back to Chch. However I did hear of him through a few people who'd played golf with him over the years since he retired. They were all as much in awe of the guy as I was.
Anyway, I've rambled far too much on this subject, sorry guys.
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Post by phil82 on Aug 28, 2006 9:41:58 GMT 12
Steve, the Station/Base Warrant Officer was god! He was the CO's right-hand man and the base disciplinarian, although if you largely followed the rules you might never meet him in an official capacity!
Warrant Officers are a unique group; the are addressed as "Sir" by everyone lower in rank, and as "Mr" by Officers. The BWO is is top of the WO pile, and believe me, they were chosen well! I like that little ditty from Dave, it's well-told too, but I can at least add to it!
I was Orderly Officer at a Base which shall be nameless because it might identify the gentleman concerned, and I received a call from a very drunk lady complaining there was a fight going on between her, another woman, and her husband, and I needed to lock the other two up!
Now the WOs and SNCOs Mess is largely a very private institute, and by and large they run their own affairs. In this case, they had a roster of duty bar managers, and the BWO, had put himself on it, and I knew he was behind the bar so I rang the Mess and he answered the phone. I identified myself, [and we had known each other for a number of years], told him of the phone call I had received, and asked if he needed my intervention?
"Well Sir", he said. "If you wander down here rather slowly, we can discuss the situation".
So I rang the DNCO, and we met and walked ever so slowly over to the Sgts Mess, and knocked quietly on the back door, removed my hat, as you do, and went into the bar area, the shutters of which were down. "Evening Sir, would you like a beer"?. So we chatted about this and that for about 20 minutes while the Mess Members sorted out the problem on their own without formal intervention, then it was cap on and back to my own Mess. There's always more than one way to skin a cat in the air force! I also avoided a heap of paperwork!
Of course, the air force being a sort of family, every SNCO on Base knew about the incident and everywhere I went, that morning I was met by a smiling Sgt or Flt Sgt with an offer of a drink!
On another occasion, when I was on my Commissioning Course at Wigram, we were supposed to take a parade and recall every single command, something you don't do as an airman! My "flight" was comprised entirely of SNCOs on a course, and there I was in front of them as an Acting Pilot Officer, and my mind went completely blank! I knew most of them, and had worked for quite a few, and they could see I was in trouble, so for the next few minutes, every single command was whispered from the front rank! It cost me a few beers.
I also recall over a beer in a pub in Sydney,with an old mate who was on a course in the RAF, and on a parade on a very foggy day, under the command of the SWO, when they realised the orders were being barked from a now invisible source! They realised that if they couldn't see the SWO, he coundn't see them, so they quietly broke ranks and ran away, to the sounds of "I know who you all are". He didn't ,of course, and they all claimed they had been dismissed.
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Post by corsair67 on Aug 28, 2006 21:59:12 GMT 12
Okay Colin, I'm all confused now: the RAAF did have a dark blue uniform originally, then they went to a lighter blue, and now they're back where they started?
Can you tell me then, what is the khaki(?) uniform the RNZAF personnel were wearing in the late-1960s when they bought the Skyhawks? There's a b&w photo of the pilots wearing this uniform in front of a Skyhawk on page 33 of "Topped Gun".
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Post by planeimages on Aug 28, 2006 22:03:18 GMT 12
A great yarn, Dave. You must have met some terrors in the RNZAF.
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Post by phil82 on Aug 28, 2006 22:18:18 GMT 12
Right, rattle the grey matter....
The Aussies uniform was identical to the RAF and RNZAF except it was dark blue, certainly during WW2. They changed to a light blue, rather USAF-ish sometime, but have now reverted to the original colour. We in the RNZAF had a winter uniform of battledress and best blue etc, and at some official date we changed to the KD for summer, usually a bloody cold day! At some stage, and I was in at the time so I should remember it but I don't, we went all blue with different weight cloth for summer and winter, and we did away with the belt on the best blue. I don't know when we did away with the 'working blue', or the old 'battledress' as it was. Did you know the RNZAF once issued suitcases? They were horrible blue things and weighed a ton! I still have one in the garage!
The issue KD in NZ was pretty much a uniform colour, excuse the pun,but it was determined as Stone Gray at some stage, which was a much better material. In Singapore, no uniforms were issued, but we were instead given the money to have our 'Stone Gray' shorts and shirts etc made locally. The result of such shopping around was a variety of colours depending on how the material washed, and all Kiwis looked as though they'd bought uniforms which varied in colour from the correct Stone Gray, to almost white. This led to the RAF CO at Tengah at one stage suggesting the RNZAF not join in any formal parades!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 28, 2006 22:19:47 GMT 12
A few terrors, but a load of really awesome people. As Colin says, the Air Force is one big family. A really great experience that i don't think can be replicated in civilian life nor fully appreciated by those who've never served. Not trying to make that sound condescending at all, just that's the way it is.
Great stories Colin.
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