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Post by phil82 on Nov 29, 2007 12:09:53 GMT 12
The Vulcan story about bunting out of a high speed dive would require the Vulcan and crew to be stressed to incredible negative G forces etc. Perhaps some details have changed in the retelling of that story. Not that I can claim any time on a Vulcan. ;D Nope...them's the facts as related by the man himself, mind you he is Australian............ I'll see if I can find the post in question!
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Post by FlyNavy on Nov 29, 2007 12:24:54 GMT 12
OK thanks - it is a hairy story for sure. Oz pilots always tell the truth. Honest.
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Post by turboNZ on Nov 29, 2007 14:14:04 GMT 12
This Vampire info is absolutely fascinating. Thanks for sharing.
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Post by phil82 on Nov 29, 2007 14:18:25 GMT 12
OK thanks - it is a hairy story for sure. Oz pilots always tell the truth. Honest. OK, I found the original post, on page 39 0f 400, the things we do.... It seems my memory, good as it is, missed out the word "Considered" as in "I considered pushing and rolling level". I blame copius consuption of some fine Coonawarra reds. Read the whoile thing for yourself> Towards the end of 1957, Flt Lt Rus Law was selected to replace me at Boscombe Down. He was then completing the ETPS course at Farnborough. I commenced handing over my responsibilities for all Vulcan flight tests to others in the squadron. Flt Lt Ray Bray was to pick up on weapon carriage and release trials. So, one day we were out over Lyme Bay in Vulcan 892 with a full load of practice bombs. One point for measurement was to be at the corner of the aircraft flight envelope with the weapon bay doors open. This was 415 Kts IAS, 0.98 IMN and 3.5 g. The cross over for IMN and IAS was at about 27,000 ft. Ray was flying the aircraft from the right seat. We started a spiralling descent at high mach number from above 35,000 ft, aiming to reach all of the test conditions together at 27,000 ft. The Vulcan had an increasing nose down pitching moment due to shock wave effects as speed increased above 0.88 IMN. To artificially correct this instability, Avro had inserted an auto mach trimmer in the elevator controls. The trimmer responded to mach number by extending increasing up elevator without any change to stick position or feel until it ran out of authority at 0.98 IMN. There was then little remaining elevator movement available, especially for manoeuvre. We were thus spiralling down with almost full up-elevator. I had discussed these limits during our pre-flight briefing so we were a bit wary. As it happened, Ray pulled a little too tightly into the spiral just short of our target conditions and speed dropped off. He relaxed stick back pressure to recover speed which increased too quickly and to overshoot just as we had reached the limit of the auto mach trimmer. The result was an abrupt increase in nose-down pitch and an attempt to control this by further back-stick. But there was no more left, the elevators were at full authority. I grabbed the stick with both hands, stopped the roll and tried to milk some more elevator. With two of us pulling hard on the stick, we found it to be very firmly against the stops. But, the nose was pitching down at an increasing rate as mach number went up past 1.0. I let go of the stick with my right hand and pulled all engines back to idle, before pondering the effects of the speed brakes if I were to extend them now at a speed well above their maximum operating speed. There was a real risk of them failing structurally. By now we were going through the vertical with the Mach No reaching 1.04+ . I was considering pushing under and slowly rolling upright. I took the risk and slammed down the speed brake control and felt them bight. IAS and IMN started to come back and, slowly at first, the elevators started to pitch the nose up. We came back through the vertical at about 18,000 ft and soon gained normal control. Continuing buffet reminded us that the weapon bay doors were still open. To my relief they closed as we continued to pull out of our dive, regaining level flight at 8,000 ft. Any ships below would have received a very substantial sonic bang. There was a residual abnormal noise and my concern about the speed brakes returned. I called base and asked for assistance from any airborne aircraft in the vicinity. A Canberra was vectored towards us as I headed back towards Boscombe Down. I found that, as I slowed the aircraft, the noise became worse. At 150 Kts the noise in the cockpit was like blowing across the top of an empty bottle. Soon we had a Canberra pilot looking us over. He spotted a small access hatch open under the nose and no other problem of external significance. The hatch turned out to be the access to the oxygen filling connections. Ground inspection revealed that the rear bulkhead of the weapons bay had been deformed. If that had let go we would have lost our tail. This turned out to be the first time that a V bomber had gone supersonic. It was not to be a normal event. In the next year one of B Squadron's Victors ran-away nose down after losing a pitot tube and broke up over the Bristol channel.
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Post by FlyNavy on Nov 29, 2007 14:46:06 GMT 12
Thanks Phil82. A hairy story for sure. Good the Vulcan crew survived to tell the tale.
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Post by FlyNavy on Nov 29, 2007 15:07:08 GMT 12
More fascinating factoids Vampirewise: There are one or two good stories about flying the Vampire from Australian Aviation Magazines about fifteen years ago now, written by an 'oldie but a goldie' ex RAN pilot now retired Captain and former OIC of HMAS Albatross. I won't try to steal his thunder as he told the main glitches of Vampire flying very well; so I only recap here. Keeping the nosewheel of the runway was critical during touch and gos otherwise the nosewheel would shimmy from side to side and create vibrations in the airframe and quite a racket of noise. Usually the nosewheel would be replaced if damage was severe so it was a quick learning curve for new students to not only keep the nosewheel off but also increase throttle without overfuelling. Much like the rub your stomach and pat your head with the other hand [at the same time] trick. Initially a student would master one trick - but not the two together - much to instructor chagrin. Overfuelling the engine was such a horrible experience one tended to do it once only unless during a practice emergency the adrenalin had the throttle advanced too quickly. Not only would the engine rumble away but the EGT (or whatever it was called on Vampire - exhaust gas temp) would start to climb off the dial and there was a real risk of fire [or engine failure] if the overfuelling continued. Of course reducing throttle so as to reduce the racket was the technique for peaceful acceleration. Quickly one learnt the 'keep the engine on the "burble" effect'. Once learnt and practised enough I don't think the engine acceleration was ever a problem afterwards. Likewise the 'nosewheel off runway' trick was a slight back stick on touch down to counter the nose down, depending on the flare. And yes at NAS Nowra we flared both the Vampire and Macchi but not the Sea Venom which had undercarriage built for no flare landings (and maxaret/ Gearling / non-skid brakes which were really nice in comparison to the Vampire). The RAAF Vampires had toe brakes driven by air pressure from engine which could become depleted on long taxis, so judicious taxying was a skill I took more than the usual time to master. The cure was to park with the tail end over the grass, otherwise hot exhaust would melt the asphalt taxiway, and wait for airpressure to increase and then off again. My feet were bad on the brakes. So transitioning to the same system but with a brake lever on the control column in the RAN was another fascinating variation, with differential brakes obtained by pushing rudder pedals. A Vampire was a real 'Heath Robinson' machine. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heath_Robinson If anyone finds cartoons of his flying machines you will know.
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Post by flycookie on Nov 29, 2007 15:38:32 GMT 12
Thanks to the relevant contributors for the Vulcan and Vampire pieces. Made muchos grande good reading.
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Post by FlyNavy on Nov 29, 2007 16:25:28 GMT 12
Thanks CookieFly. By no means do I attempt to imply that flying a Vampire was easy, especially the transition from a Winjeel with wheels down and welded to a relatively fast training jet. Attempting to keep ahead of the Vampire for the first few weeks was a chore not expected after mastering a Winjeel; but what did we know at this stage. ;D
In comparison to a Macchi MB326H (a simple machine compared to the 339s from what little I have seen about the 339s) the Vampire was antedeluvian (before the flood?). All the instruments were usually large dials with three needles, and they all looked the same. One hoped that the airspeed was not spinning rapidly around the dial and that it was only the RPM gauge. RPM could be micromanaged to an incredible extent on long hi level nav trips. None of yer autopilots here.
However attempting to look below a Vampire at 30,000 feet was always hilarious for instructors watching their new students. The Vampire would fall out of the sky (with drop tanks fitted) at anything more than a few degrees of bank so one learnt how to look to the slant/side for navigation waypoints. That is if the ice could be cleared on the glass. ;D
I have written a PDF about the 3 needle altimeter misreading issue and I'll post a link to it here soon. Probably an RAN Commander was lost at night over water misreading this diabolical device. If you were lucky - after a lighting failure - simply replacing a fuse could get some instrument lights back, otherwise these dials were big enough to see by moonlight - if that was possible.
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Post by phil82 on Nov 29, 2007 16:26:08 GMT 12
Wet starts on the Vampire were not uncommon, and even on the later Venom, which had the much-improved Ghost engine, they were quite a sight! The groundcrews were up to the mark however, and used to hang an asbestos blanket over the tail boom to prevent damage. The Venom was a cartridge start, so you would get this very loud noise accompanied by a vertical jet of smoke, and the typical rumble of the engine, and a blowtorch of flame out the back!
The Derwent engines in the Meteor were also tricky to handle, as some non-pilots found out when the RAF decided to fit two of them to a trailer with a Hippo tanker connected, and use it for clearing snow from V-bomber airfields in the UK! The joke was that the 'Boss' would ask casually in the crew-room if anyone had any twin engined experience, then grab whoever put their hands up to go man this contraption. It had a sort of tin hut between the engines which housed the throttles etc, and the idea was to use just enough power to proved a blast of hot air to clear away snow. Pilots being pilots of course always wanted to see 'what'll she do" and open the throttles too quickly, which resulted and a few loud bangs and a jet of flame out the back. Most of us watching knew this of course, and laughed from a distance! It wasn't that effective, because it simply turned snow into water which froze into ice.
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Post by FlyNavy on Nov 29, 2007 16:32:20 GMT 12
Never volunteer right? ;D
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Post by flyjoe180 on Nov 29, 2007 19:01:06 GMT 12
;D What a cool story!
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Post by FlyNavy on Nov 29, 2007 19:23:20 GMT 12
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Post by FlyNavy on Nov 30, 2007 0:23:58 GMT 12
Another perspective on the Vampire quirks from UK entitled "Throttling a Vampire" and you just could do that sometimes: "Throttling a Vampire What is this curious little jet like to fly? Paul Morris, former RAF Vickers VC 10 captain and currently flying an English Electric Canberra PR.9 with 39 Sqn, has had the opportunity of getting to know the Vampire and its 1940s design and technology. Paul has been flying the Vampire in his spare time since about 1994. A self-confessed flying addict, he was invited to fly with Source, but recently has moved over to de Havilland Aviation to fly the Vampire, Venom and Meteor from Bournemouth.
Paul, who has some 120hr on the Vampire and a further 40hr on the Venom, thoroughly enjoys the simplicity and unrefined handling of the type. With a take-off speed in the region of 90kt and touching down at around 105kt, much of the Vampire’s performance resembles that of the later Jet Provost. “This aircraft is like an old British racing car,” explains Paul. “It is rewarding to fly, although it is underpowered by today’s standards and has its quirks.”
The Vampire is generally considered docile and safe, and its technology is simple and reliable. The main problem is anticipating the power needs of the engine, as this type of engine takes time to spool up to higher thrust levels. At low r.p.m. it is all too easy to flood the engine, and there is no fuel-air mixture control. “You have to keep a close eye on the engine. You can’t work the throttle to get the r.p.m. up in a hurry. In the circuit I like to keep it above 6,000 r.p.m.,” reports Paul, “otherwise the aircraft is pretty viceless.”
Although the Vampire is pleasant from a flying perspective, the tiny T.11 cockpit is cramped for two men, with not a lot of room to move. Moreover, the cockpit is a typically British ergonomic nightmare, with many things in the wrong place. The worst design and layout errors concern the positioning of the flap and undercarriage levers, which are located down the side of the seat, out of sight by the floor and mounted side-by-side. It is extremely easy to mistake the levers while concentrating on other matters, and this has resulted in a number of incidents with Vampires and Venoms (which have a similar layout) in recent years. If incorrectly selected on the ground, for instance, the undercarriage is unlocked instead of the flaps being lowered on a pre-flight check. This necessitates jacking the aircraft up to re-lock the legs.
Paul nevertheless feels at home in the Vampire, though at 37 he is younger than the aircraft. The Vampire is similar in layout and generation to the Canberra, with all those odd layout problems that hail from that era.
The Vampire found its calling as a trainer. A functional design, it also epitomised the post-war era of British aircraft development. The industry was forced to muddle along with quick-fix solutions, with new ideas or variations to existing designs always seemingly based upon a tired, but tried and tested, set of principles. The specialists seemed to tweak at the periphery, rather than radically redesign.
With its wooden components and originality, the Vampire recalls much of the great de Havilland tradition. The twin-boom “V fighter” trio of Vampire, Venom and Vixen are remembered as solid workhorses; thankfully, examples of each are still flying.
Throttling a Vampire — Aeroplane Magazine, Oct 2003, pp. 84–5
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Post by phil82 on Nov 30, 2007 4:47:36 GMT 12
FlyNavy, just a point or two which might be of interest given your background! I was in ANZUK in Singapore from 1974-76 which was an interesting experience given the mix of officers from all three countries and nine services, but it worked because we all had the same objectives I guess. I recall one RN Lt Cmdr, a pilot, who was the only survivor of his wings course, and that was all peace-time flying! It was one of the more memorable parties the night before he went home when he invited everyone around to clean up the contents of his 'liquor locker'. Regarding the Vampire and in fact all British post-war aircraft, the British aviation writer and author of many books, Bill Gunston, once argued that the UK industry never produced anything that compared directly with American hardware. There were one or two exceptions such as the Canberra and the Hunter, but the last all-British aircraft was the Hawk, now nearly forty years old! In my time in the RAF, we were stumbling our way around the world in Beverleys and Hastings , while the Americans had the Constellation, and DC6/7 and of course the Hercules and C133. We should have sued for cruel and unusual punishment after a few hour in the back of a Beverley! In the jet area they were also way behind, according to Bill. The US had the Century series fighters and we had.....Venoms, the Swift, Vampires, Meteors, Scimitars, and the Sea Vixen. The Venom, didn't get an ejection seat until the very last version, whereas it was competing against the Sabre which had cup-holders and was designed from the outset with an ejection seat. Bill goes on quite a bit in his comparaison, the VC10, a fine aircraft in itself, but too late to sell in any numbers, the Britannia, likewise, a turbo-prop up against the 707 and Convair 880., the Comet, well, too small really. Trident V B727, the list goes on.
Regarding the T11 undercarriage, I know of at least one student , with his QFI alongside him, who unlocked the undercarriage while taxying. The space inside for two people was very cramped, especially if both of you had broad shoulders! The Canberra trainer was just as bad,
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Post by FlyNavy on Nov 30, 2007 11:23:10 GMT 12
Agree about British aircraft/jet building. Their excuse would be lack of money for development of whatever they managed to build. Understandable after WW2. I'm told most of the Vampire was built from WW2 bits hence reason for strange instrument panel and inappropriate 3 needle instruments. The US had some odd early jets I'm told with strange instruments - I guess this shows the early days were just that. Glass cockpits are ubitquitous today and I have no idea what they look like. ;D
[In case our Moditator2 is wondering - given all the hassles with IE7 and any variations of same I have switched over to Firefox2 (not mythical aircraft flown by ClintBaby in movie of same name)] and it would seem I can now access these venerable, august pages mit said Firefox.]
Phil82 perhaps our RAAF/RAN training helped prevent Vampire U/C up on ground troubles. Now that I think about it perhaps the few RAN pilots who trained on Macchis but had to convert to Vampires at Nowra for a few months before new Macchis arrived may have had this issue.
Another 'well known' problem for RAN Sea Venom/Vampire pilots was the silly interchange of the high pressure fuel cock in the Vampire with a similar lever in the same position in the Sea Venom however this one was the speedbrake. So flying a Sea Venom for a long time using the speedbrake meant that then climbing into a Vampire had one or two people flaming out (usually at high altitude thank goodness) when they closed off fuel to the engine instead of extending the speedbrakes. ;D
I have another PDF story about this to add to the web somewhere. Link will be posted here soon. Have to check out the thought controlled (as in the movie) Firefox - where is my helmet. ;D
And commiserations on your Beverley travels. For Queen and country eh.
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Post by FlyNavy on Nov 30, 2007 11:55:21 GMT 12
Here is a 724 squadron (RAN) linebook page entry (slightly amended) demonstrating the speedbrake/engine shutdown issue - of course shutting the engine down is an excellent way to slow down in flight. 2Mb PDF explanation about the Venom/Vampire Fuel shutdown / Speedbrake lever interchange problem here: files.filefront.com/VenomVampireProblempdf/;9153510;/fileinfo.html
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Post by FlyNavy on Nov 30, 2007 15:54:22 GMT 12
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Post by FlyNavy on Dec 1, 2007 16:36:19 GMT 12
Hastings crash at Darwin info mentioned earlier: www.adf-serials.com/invboard/index.php?showtopic=181"The crash took place on the 9th september 1955. Serial NZ5804 No lives were lost. All 25 on board survived but aircraft was written off. The airplane was at 50 feet, and an airspeed of 130 knots, when three engines lost power when the airplane hit a flock of birds."
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Post by flyjoe180 on Dec 1, 2007 20:26:26 GMT 12
Not a bad outcome considering the loss of three engines!
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Post by FlyNavy on Feb 13, 2008 8:19:13 GMT 12
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