Roads too bad for our LAVs

[vgp]

Manawatu Standard Article:

Roads too bad for our LAVs
By LEE MATTHEWS - Manawatu Standard | Wednesday, 02 April 2008

Crumpy would be proud - New Zealand defence forces will stick with their Toyota Hiluxes in Afghanistan because the roads are too bad to use light armoured vehicles.


One of four Army utes patrolling in Bamiyan province was hit by a roadside bomb earlier this week. Nobody was injured - but National Party defence spokesman Wayne Mapp immediately called for LAVs to be sent to Afghanistan to keep the troops safe.

"Labour spent $700 million purchasing 105 LAVs. Since then, up to 38 have been in storage at any given time, and they have never been deployed," Dr Mapp said. But Defence spokesman Commander Shaun Fogarty said there was no intention to send LAVs to Afghanistan. They wouldn't cope with the bad roads.

"Some -of the roading in this area is so unstable and remote, the LAVs would not be useable," Commander Fogarty said. "We're better off with our Toyota Hilux utes. They're four-wheel-drive, can handle the terrain, and some of them have armoured chassis."

Using LAVs would also send the wrong message to the Afghani people.

"It's low-security there, our role is humanitarian. Armoured LAVs are not the profile we want to present."

This week's bomb incident was the first of its type in 12 rotations of personnel to the province, he said

www.stuff.co.nz/manawatustandard/4460283a6003.html

[sniff]

I look forward to the 'constructive' comments under this thread.

Logical argument will get passed back, trust me!

[Dave Homewood]

All I can say is I'm surprised that LAV's can't handle rough roads. What are they like off road then? Are they any good? Or big lemons?

[sniff]

Yes, big lemons are.

;D

[Kenny]

I can see the humanitarian image thing,

What i cant see is why not the armoured Pinzgauers be sent, they can carry the numbers, have the speed and offroading capability, and more importantly they can fit in a herc... (and or otherwise easier to transport on allied flights ect)

I can see why they wouldnt use lavs, their not in combat and its not suited for the task.

Certainly the nzlav has good offroad capabilty, but im afraid people tend to be overshadowed by american Lav-25s which bear the brunt of media attention as time and time again the mighty marines are stuck in mud, thus creating questions about our Lav3 varaints, yet another sad case of media not knowing facts.

10 soldiers trapped in the back as it rolls down a cliff from an afgani road that couldnt take 20 tonne, or thrown from a hilux and more likely to survive, and without the added humiliation?

A bulky lav isnt what you need for a speedy patrol in those conditions.

But then again, this could be a labour stuff up on the fact the Lavs may be the bees knees - but hey you aint got nothing to transport em with.

Just my $2

Ps, i should add, toyota looks to be the winner out of all this. ;D

[Bruce]

I think the issue is not that the LAVs cant cope with the roads, the roads cant cope with the LAVs. I would imagine that the locals would get pretty upset if they couldnt get their produce to market because the roads kept getting cut up by heavy armoured vehicles - especially as the kiwis are trying to improve such infrastructure. I also agree that the LAV is the wrong look for the Kiwi forces. I have heard the comment that for the NZ troops, their black caps and kiwi patches are worth more than any number of inches of armour plate. Their conduct has given them an excellent reputation amongst the afgan people, and even hardcore extremists are reluctant to harm them. I would say that there may be a small handful of Pinzgauers repainted in desert Pink, but no LAVs. The overall capabilities (or otherwise) of the LAVs is a completely different argument - which may go on for some time...

[Dave Homewood]

We could always send a battalion of Engineers to fix the roads, then send the LAV's ;D After all, we're there to help the locals.

[phil]

Well all I know is the LAV I was riding in got so stuck we couldn't drop the back ramp, we had to sqeeze out the little door in the back ramp, that we could open just far enough. We then had to wait for another LAV to come and get us out. This was in Zone 1 in Waiouru, not far from SH1. It was quite muddy, but flat. I wouldn't have wanted to be under fire in that situation.

[tfly]

Sounds like an argument to 'chuck the LAV down the Lav to me' ;D (oh and buy some F16's instead )
Hell a MRV that loses RHIB's in the sea, LAV's that get stuck in the mud and NZ$771 for just 8 Helo's I'd say that's taxpayers money well spent!

[corsair67]

I have heard the comment that for the NZ troops, their black caps and kiwi patches are worth more than any number of inches of armour plate. Their conduct has given them an excellent reputation amongst the afgan people, and even hardcore extremists are reluctant to harm them.

The problem with this is how long will it last? All it takes is one extremist with a shitload of explosives to make that theory redundant. Lets face it, people like the Taliban and Al Queda don't exactly have a problem killing several hundred thousand of their own people, so why would they have a problem killing a few Kiwi 'infidels'? After all, as far as they are concerned we are just another bunch of 'invaders' in their land.

Maybe the NZ troops need something like the Bushmaster which the Australians are using over in Afghanistan and Iraq?

[30sqnatc]

Don't you just love how the press tell a fraction of the story Yes there have been varying numbers of LAV in storage but only because the people who would other wise be operating and maintaining them are overseas/training to go overseas/on leave after being overseas on missions that do not require the capabilities of LAV (and the additional logistics burden to support them).

Similarly we don't have artillery, mortars, anti armour or air defence systems in Solomons, Timor Leste or Afghanistan.

Perhaps we should have a embedded platoon of press who naturally will always travel in the first Hilux of all convoys

Paul

[30sqnatc]

corsair67 said:

Maybe the NZ troops need something like the Bushmaster which the Australians are using over in Afghanistan and Iraq?

If the roads can't withstand a @20t LAV on 8 wheels they certainly wouldn't look very flash after a @15-18t Bushmaster (depending on armour fit) on four wheels had been using them.

Bushmaster aren't even road legal in NZ without a special over weight permit

Paul

[corsair67]

If the roads can't withstand a @20t LAV on 8 wheels they certainly wouldn't look very flash after a @15-18t Bushmaster (depending on armour fit) on four wheels had been using them.

Ah bugger the roads then: the Afghanis can repair them later. After all, it's their country. ;D

[flyjoe180]

If you want a good insight into the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, read a book called "Kiwi Under Fire" by Gary Brandon. He served in the NZ Army and was sent to Bosnia as a peacekeeper, then after leaving the army, went to Afghanistan and later Iraq as a contractor. A great read, recommend it if you havent done so already.



ISBN 978-1-877427-15-2

Here is a link to a news story about the author who lost a leg in Iraq. tvnz.co.nz/view/page/411319/901577

[flyjoe180]

And here is a three part interview with Mr Brandon

3gtvonline.com/main.php?g2_itemId=5806

[30sqnatc]

corsair67 said:

If the roads can't withstand a @20t LAV on 8 wheels they certainly wouldn't look very flash after a @15-18t Bushmaster (depending on armour fit) on four wheels had been using them.

Ah bugger the roads then: the Afghanis can repair them later. After all, it's their country. ;D

Are your bags packed? With a caring attitude like that I think you can be added to the 18 reinforcements off soon to fill the community relations liaison officer function ;D ;D

Should you turn down that offer there is a vacancy as anti-grafitti officer in South Auckland

Paul

[Dave Homewood]

Bushmaster? Sounds like some sort of lawnmower.

[30sqnatc]

admin said:

Bushmaster? Sounds like some sort of lawnmower.

Yeah an Aussie lawnmower. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushmaster_IMV

Paul

[corsair67]

Hey, I'm a very caring guy: I care about myself very much indeed! ;D

Bushmaster Lawnmower - the machine guns on the roof cuts through grass like a hot knife through butter.

And I ain't going anywhere near South Auckland! ;D

[skyhawkdon]

30sqnatc said:

Similarly we don't have artillery, mortars, anti armour or air defence systems in Solomons, Timor Leste or Afghanistan.

I think the threat situation is the Solomons and East Timor is quite different to Afghanistan Paul. While WE don't have any offensive combat capability in Afghanistan our coalition partners certainly do and it is available to support our "reconstruction team" 24 hours a day if needed. I find it incredibly ironic that neither of the armoured vehicle types selected by the NZ Army are deployed in Afghanistan because they are "unsuitable". Instead we lease armoured Hummers from the US (which surely just make us a bigger target)?? Why do we do that when we have spend millions on Pinzgauers - are they also the wrong vehicle for Afghanistan?

We have far too many LAVs without a doubt. Not only was the initial capital outlay for them huge but the ongoing maintenance and depreciation costs over their life is going to be similarly large. Money is wasted on them (including all the "spare" ones in storage and U/S) while our troops in Afghanistan drive around in leased Hummers and Hiluxes... as a taxpayer I find that a little odd!