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Post by Dave Homewood on May 18, 2008 17:21:41 GMT 12
I fully agree with you Sam.
I have seen unusal things in the sky that I cannot identify, but never in my wildest dreams would I equate it to something from outer space coming to visit. That's a ridiculous notion dreamt up by sci-fi writers, embraced by Hollywood and overdone by redneck Americans with no life and a zest for fame...
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Post by FlyNavy on May 18, 2008 17:24:57 GMT 12
Wish everyone luck trying to explain something that was an 'event' 30 years ago. Probably if the same 'event' was to occur today we would have better 'evidence' or better educated eye-witness accounts for a better explanation perhaps. All conjecture on my part though. Beliefs are just that. Beliefs are not held from evidence, so providing evidence to 'UFO believers' is not productive one way or the other.
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Post by mumbles on May 18, 2008 17:44:44 GMT 12
Wish everyone luck trying to explain something that was an 'event' 30 years ago. Probably if the same 'event' was to occur today we would have better 'evidence' or better educated eye-witness accounts for a better explanation perhaps. All conjecture on my part though. Beliefs are just that. Beliefs are not held from evidence, so providing evidence to 'UFO believers' is not productive one way or the other. I don't think it would be easy to find witnesses any more credible than some of those involved in the Kaikoura incidents.... I should clarify that when I say I think the offical reports on the case are not credible, it is not from the paranoid 'its the official explanation therefore it must be some sort of coverup angle'. It is based on the knowledge that both reports contain errors of fact, ignore some pieces of evidence and confuse others, and offer explanations that do not fit the observations. I am not a rampant UFO believer, but its a subject that has interested me all my life. My opinion (and I use that term rather than the more vague 'belief') is that a minority of UFO sightings genuinely cannot be explained prosaically, and warrant genuine scientific investigation without the hysteria and ridicule that gets automatically associated with the subject. Maybe Dave is right and in the black world the phenomenon is fully accounted for.
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 18, 2008 22:53:26 GMT 12
For the UFO nuts, there's a programme on Prime TV right now about UFO's.
Some nice cgi RAF Mosquitoes on screen right now.
Edit: For those who are not watching the show, this is part one of it here (I assume the rest is on the tube too)
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Post by vgp on May 19, 2008 9:42:47 GMT 12
you forgot to add that re: that ufo program 60% of UFOs reported to Bluebook were actually classified military Projects.
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 19, 2008 9:59:12 GMT 12
Yes, and the rest were kooks.
That programme was really quite fascinating. So Foo Fighters were indeed a German secret weapon and not a natural phenomena it seems.
I worked out many years ago that it was obvious the majority of sightings of unexplained aircraft were secret projects being covered up by the hoax of alien vistors. It's so obvious, that's why most UFO reports come from the USA, especially around their testing areas.
And I still cannot believe that people got sucked into the obviously faked alien autopsy. I'm glad the guy who made that film finally admitted it was a hoax.
There are indeed unexplained events, such as the Kaikoura Lights, which will forever fascinate people, including me, but I will not accept any notion that it's green men from mars till one knocks on my door.
Some people however will believe any old nonsense. I heard only the other day that there is a church of the jedi in the UK now! Some drunk dressed as Darth Vader and went and beat up the church leaders! Cracked me up.
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Post by vgp on May 19, 2008 17:56:14 GMT 12
New msNBC Dateline Doco Features: kaikoura Lights: www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24695796/?pg=18#DTL_10UFONew Zealand Orbs Intrepid newsman Quentin Fogarty was sent to investigate a strange sighting off the coast of New Zealand. But the reporter soon became an eyewitness. But to what, exactly, was he an eyewitness? You decide. Click here to see video full size
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 19, 2008 18:50:16 GMT 12
I find absolutely nothing fascinating about Star Trek I'm afraid. My sisters are fans, yikes!
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Post by ox on May 20, 2008 21:40:29 GMT 12
I remember watching this doco as a kid - parents were at a party and us kids were camped in a room with the TV, this was on and it fair scared the crap out of me.
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Post by vgp on Oct 9, 2008 7:28:19 GMT 12
Kaikoura UFO hunt flies again Thursday, 09 October 2008 Thirty years ago Safe Air pilot Bill Startup saw something out the window of his Argosy freight plane that has baffled UFO sceptics and believers to this day. Now, the famous Kaikoura UFO sightings of 1978 are to be repeated in a replicated flight in December, with Mr Startup and other crew and passengers in the plane. Marlborough-based film maker Paul Davidson, who owns the same Argosy at the centre of the mystery – the Merchant Enterprise – said a charter flight had been arranged to follow the same path at exactly the same time on December 30. Mr Davidson said the sightings were unique because not only were they witnessed by the two pilots, but they were also filmed by a professional news cameraman on board the flight. Two separate radar systems tracked the mysterious lights off the Kaikoura Coast at the same time as the sightings and previous witnesses had also reported strange lights in the area. Various theories have been put forward to explain the lights including atmospheric disturbance and distorted lights from the ground, but those aboard have no doubt what they saw. Mr Startup, who still lives in Blenheim, said there were "lots of funny things happening" that night. He wrote a book based on his observations. Cameraman David Crockett and journalist Quentin Fogarty were aboard the Merchant Enterprise specifically to try to see for themselves the strange lights that others had reported. Mr Fogarty also wrote a book on the subject. Mr Davidson said it was the first time a UFO had been seen simultaneously by trained observers, tracked by radar and filmed by a professional cameraman. He said the flight later this year would take off from Blenheim Airport and head to Wellington, as the Merchant Enterprise had done. It would leave Wellington Airport at 11.50pm and head for Christchurch where they first encountered the strange lights over Kaikoura. All of those on the original flight had been invited and there would be seats available for those wanting to relive the UFO experience. The replica flight was one of a number of events taking place to mark the "Kaikoura UFO Anniversary" in Blenheim from 28-31 December. Also planned is a UFO Symposium at the Marlborough Research Centre, tours of the Argosy aircraft involved and the premiere of "Kaikoura – The Light Inside of Me", a contemporary musical inspired by the events of 1978. www.stuff.co.nz/4721269a11.html
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Post by FlyNavy on Oct 9, 2008 7:48:03 GMT 12
I want to grow up to be a "trained (UFO) observer" Mum. ;D
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Post by nzompilot on Oct 9, 2008 13:45:28 GMT 12
Just listened to an interview by Jim Mora with Paul Davidson on Radio New Zealand National - interesting. For those who want to go to any of the events planned to celebrate the 30th anniversary or to join the recreation flight the link is www.argosy.co.nzLooks like it could be an interesting flight BHE-WLG-CHC-BHE with optional connections WLG-BHE and BHE-WLG at either end. The UFO recreation flight is on Vincent's Dash 8 ZK-VAC, crewed by Peter Vincent and Ian Pirie with the argosy pilots Bill Startup and Bob Guard, and journalist Quentin Fogarty on board providing commentry about what they saw that night.
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Post by stu on Oct 17, 2008 15:40:45 GMT 12
F.Y.I.
Campbell Live - Monday, story on the Kaikoura lights (just recorded a promo for it about 5 minutes ago).
Cheers, Stu.
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Post by stu on Oct 21, 2008 8:09:20 GMT 12
F.Y.I. Campbell Live - Monday, story on the Kaikoura lights (just recorded a promo for it about 5 minutes ago). Cheers, Stu. www.3news.co.nz/Video/CampbellLive/tabid/367/articleID/76505/cat/84/Default.aspxand while we're at it ..... www.stuff.co.nz/4733748a12.html AAP | Monday, 20 October 2008 'I was ordered to shoot down UFO'An American jet fighter pilot has spoken of the day he was scrambled to try to shoot down a UFO in British airspace more than 50 years ago. Lieutenant Milton Torres was based in Britain on May 20, 1957 when he received the order: get up there, arm all weapons and fire on sight. He climbed into his Sabre jet, took off from a Royal Air Force base in Kent and headed east, spotting on his radar the blip that his superiors had judged to be hostile and probably Russian. The dot indicated an object about the size of a B52 bomber about 24km away and Torres set a course, rockets at the read, to catch it. But the aircraft vanished. The blip on the radar was gone too. Torres has finally spoken of his top secret mission following the declassification of Ministry of Defence files, cited by The Times newspaper, that relate to reported incidents of unidentified flying objects in British airspace. Torres, now 77, told The Times that the day after he was scrambled from the RAF base he received a visit from an American in a trenchcoat who waved a National Security Agency identity card at him and warned him that, if he ever revealed what had happened, he would never fly again. He took the warning to heart and said nothing until 1988 when, through a solicitor with an interest in ufology, he sent the Ministry of Defence a report giving a full account of the incident. That narrative has now been released by Britain's National Archives. "I shall never forget it, and for the last 50 years I have been waiting for an explanation, but I've never had one," he told The Times. "On that night I was ordered to open fire even before I had taken off. That had never happened before. "I was ready to hit the target with all 24 rockets: it would have been like buckshot out of a shotgun. I asked for authentication of the order to fire and I received it." Neither Torres, who was 24 at the time, nor the pilot of a second Sabre flying behind, actually saw what was making the strong blip on their radars. Since the incident, Torres has become more convinced that the object, travelling at speed and performing manoeuvres beyond the capability of any known aircraft at that time, was an alien UFO. "The blip was burning a hole in the radar with its incredible intensity. It was similar to a blip I had received from B52s and seemed to be a magnet of light. It had the proportions of a flying aircraft carrier," he wrote, according to The Times. But David Clarke, a UFO expert and lecturer in journalism at Sheffield Hallam University, has offered an alternative explanation. He said that in the 1960s it emerged that the CIA had been engaged in a secret project codenamed Palladium, in which advanced equipment was used to create simulated radar blips close to Soviet airspace. Dr Clarke told The Times that he thought it was linked to clandestine flights over the Soviet Union of the American U2 spy plane. But he added, "this doesn't explain why Milton Torres was scrambled and ordered to open fire".
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Post by FlyNavy on Oct 21, 2008 9:21:15 GMT 12
stu, I'm glad you found that item. I found it yesterday but did not want to start another discussion. What fascinated me was the idea that something seen on radar that vanishes suddenly is somehow an UFO. I would have seen quite a few in my time but never once thought they were UFOs or anything other than false radar images or whatever benign stuff is out there (like faulty radars, clouds).
I'm glad an alternate theory was offered: "But David Clarke, a UFO expert and lecturer in journalism at Sheffield Hallam University, has offered an alternative explanation. He said that in the 1960s it emerged that the CIA had been engaged in a secret project codenamed Palladium, in which advanced equipment was used to create simulated radar blips close to Soviet airspace."
CHAFF can show a dramatic radar return (if it was chaff that was being seen). Whatever. Anyway for sure this will be my last response to the UFO posts. Big sigh all round. ;D
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Post by stu on Oct 21, 2008 11:49:09 GMT 12
UFOs seem to be the flavour of the week in the media, must be a slow week .... www.3news.co.nz/Video/ScienceTech/tabid/311/articleID/76531/cat/676/Default.aspx#videoUK releases six years of UFO recordsAlitalia pilot Achille Zaghetti thought it was a missile. Zaghetti was at the helm of a jet from Milan to London's Heathrow Airport on the evening of April 21, 1991 when a flying object streaked across his field of vision.
"At once I said, 'look out, look out' to my co-pilot, who looked out and saw what I had seen," Zaghetti wrote in his report. "As soon as the object crossed us I asked to the ACC (area control center) operator if he saw something on his screen and he answered 'I see an unknown target 10 nautical miles behind you.'"
An investigation later ruled out a missile - but never ruled anything in, either.
The close encounter is one of many reported UFO sightings among 19 files that Britain's National Archives posted Monday to the Web. The new material covers UFO sightings between 1986 and 1992.
While the 1,500-page batch of documents debunks a host of UFO sightings, others like Zaghetti's near-miss with a UFO remain unexplained.
On June 17, 1991, four passengers on a Hamburg, Germany-bound Dan Air 737 spotted "a wingless projectile pass below and to the left of the aircraft" as the flight climbed out of London's Gatwick Airport.
"It would seem to have passed fairly close by as the passengers were able to see it quite clearly," the Civil Aviation Authority wrote in its report.
More disturbing was a sighting a month later by crew aboard a Gatwick-bound Britannia Airways Boeing 737, who saw a "a small black lozenge-shaped object" zipping past about 100 yards (90 meters) to the left of the aircraft.
The airport confirmed seeing an object on its radar and clocked it traveling at kmh. Air traffic controllers quickly warned the next aircraft to turn out of the object's flight path, although by then the object had disappeared from view.
Speculation centered on a weather balloon released in the area the same day, but an investigation could not determine what the UFO was.
Monday's release is the second batch of UFO files that Britain's military has put out this year. David Clarke, a UFO expert who has worked with the National Archives, said in the next few years, a total of 160 UFO-related files will be made available to the public.
Some things in the newly released files were either unhinged or unverifiable.
One correspondent tells the military he was shouted at by aliens while sleeping outdoors.
Another writes in "with extraordinary news", saying the "legendary 'feathered serpents'" are waiting for permission to land on earth. One US pilot's tale of being ordered to shoot down a UFO over eastern England, forwarded to the Ministry of Defence by a UFO enthusiast, was kept on file though the military turned up no evidence of it in its official records.
Occasionally, though, officials got to the bottom of the sightings.
On a clear November afternoon in 1992, an office worker called the Ministry of Defence, saying a strange shimmering object was descending slowly over London's Regent's Park.
"As call progressed, it became clear that the object was a kite," an unidentified military staffer noted drily in his write-up.
APPersonally, I'm of the opinion that UFO ( Unidentified Flying Object) doesn't automatically mean alien visitors. Mind you, I also think that given the size of the known universe, human beings would be supremely arrogant to think that we're the only intelligent life out there - the odds are just stacked against it. Also given the aforementioned vastness, the odds are just as high that species could flourish and then become extinct without ever contacting each other. But, there's always that 1% of "hmmm ... what if" so I don't dismiss the idea of contact out of hand. Changing the subject slightly, the after show chat in the control room last night drifted on to the Kaikoura lights story. I offered up the story of a recent flight I'd made with some alien lights keeping really tight formation with me and nothing I could do would shake them ... a red one on the left wing and a green one on the right, as well as a bright white blinking one right behind the cockpit. I then left the room in search of a naughty step to eat my dinner on as realisation dawned on several faces Cheers, Stu.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 21, 2008 19:24:26 GMT 12
"off of a local nz website"
Do you have a source for that website? It looks like someone has done a lot of work putting that togetehr and they may not be happy it has been copied and pasted here without a source or permission.
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Post by vgp on Oct 21, 2008 19:48:38 GMT 12
deleted in case they do sorry dave - RNZAF reports were I believe either official info act or national archive.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 21, 2008 20:04:09 GMT 12
Feel free to add a link to the site
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Post by mumbles on Oct 22, 2008 18:48:23 GMT 12
Campbell Live's piece was quite good.
Nice to see a restrained and (fairly) non-hysterical summation. Although Fogarty wasn't half hamming it up in his 1978 clips! ;D
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