US research lab at Woodbourne?

[ssgtnick]

I have read the long list of input about the USAF at Woodbourne. I was there for 6 years and enjoyed very minute. I developed many friends in Blemheim. Married one of your ladies.

I remember all the guesses of what went on there and the protest. Also had many of the sandwiches talked about at the start of these series.

I remember Mr Walsh and dated his daughter a couple of times. Sponsored a bondfire on his property one Friday night.

Thanks for the memories Nick

[Dave Homewood]

Welcome to the forum Nick. Let me guess, you can't tell us any more or you'll have to kill us all.

[longhairedgit]

Sept 30, 2013 13:07:52 GMT 12 catherine said:

"300 strong party marched to Woodbourne to protest…"

Could someone please verify this? The story going around is that they changed their minds and bused in. It might even have been in the papers. I do know that it caused much mirth on the USAF side (it's one of the reasons why I remembered it so clearly after all these years).

Yes, I was there and still remember some of what happened (the rest vanished in a beer induced haze about the same time). It was about 300 who met in central Blenheim and walked to Woodbourne (no buses) and then onto a riverside campsite the other side of Renwick. Walked back again the next day too. The buses were only used to get some of us from Picton to Blenheim.

The photo at the top of page 7 does indeed show a young Tim Shadbolt on the right but is wrongly described as "leaders discussing plans" - in fact it was Tim, his then girlfriend, and a couple of others sorting out the beer run to the Renwick pub. On second thoughts maybe that does qualify as "leaders discussing plans". A few minutes after that photo was taken, 3 of us piled into Tim's old Vanguard and headed for the Renwick pub where we did indeed purchase a lot of beer - filled the van and I spent the trip back lying on top of the beer crates as the only place I could fit.

We ended up being a bit late back with the beer as we got distracted chatting to a few blokes about the Yanks, and especially the arrogance of some of them. It was one of them with his mate who came and provided the entertainment - great guys.

[baronbeeza]

Welcome you old git. I am sure it would be an interesting camp, certainly looked like fun.
Was Owen Wilkes there, the McRae brothers or Allison Goffin ?

I would have thought it much like being in the mob, you would be bumping into like minded people on occasions.
I can imagine Tim being right in his element as the 'Wing Commander' also.

The beer over at the mess would have been cheaper than the Renwick pub.... didn't that cross your organiser's mind ?

[longhairedgit]

Yes, it was definitely fun - and that, for some of us, was a big part of it - fun and giving "the establishment" two fingers.

Yes, Owen Wilkes was definitely there, along with a couple of others from the Fox River group. About half the crowd were from Chistchurch, including Murray Horton and Brian Rooney (in the photo with Tim, extreme right) and the rest from the North Island. I seem to remember George Rosenberg, Roger Cruikshank and several others from the old PYM hangout in Watson Street including Richard Suggate. I don't remember the McRae brothers (not to say they weren't there - just I don't remember them) but I am reasonably sure Alison was there - if I am remembering the right Alison - quite a stunner with longish brunette hair.

Yes we knew very well the beer was cheaper in the mess and there was an extended discussion about how we could "hijack" the mess and its liquid contents. As I recall, we decided the only way we would get in without collecting a large number of bruises along the way would to be "invited" by a member of the mess but the two RNZAF guys who were with us were adamant they were not going to be the ones to invite us. We were working on that when it was pointed out that to get to the mess meant walking all the way back to the base whereas the alternative was to send a vehicle to bring the beer to us - collective wisdom was that the second option was much preferable.

[baronbeeza]

Dec 20, 2013 8:03:52 GMT 12 longhairedgit said:

but I am reasonably sure Alison was there - if I am remembering the right Alison - quite a stunner with longish brunette hair.

I think you have the right lady . Her father was Dean Goffin and possibly head of the Salvation Army back in the day. The McRaes had an old Model A and built on the beachside just to the North of the Fox commune. Owen Wilkes did something similar.
Allison would have been a teacher trainee at Woodbourne but graduated and taught on the coast.

I can't remember her talking about Woodbourne but I am sure she was doing the circuit and that was the crowd she was with.
David Benson-Pope was about also, it reminds me and has me wondering what Phill and Helen were doing back then. Weren't they involved in some of the Anti-Vietnam stuff ?

[Dave Homewood]

You had RNZAF members among your protest? Were they fired from their jobs for that?

In 1990 a WAAF from RNZAF Base Auckland marched in an anti-Gulf War protest in Auckland in uniform, and come Monday she was dishonourably discharged from the RNZAF. And rightly so. She was charged with bringing the service into disrepute, but it was also a law in the military that members of the Armed Forces are not to join in any organised protests, nor to sign petitions.

[baronbeeza]

I doubt the RNZAF guys would have been in uniform at the protest marches themselves. Renwick town would have been 'awash' with Tim and his crowd as well as the regular townfolk, including personnel from the Base. It would probably have been very difficult not to bump into each other, be it the pub, supermarket or wherever. Many of the RNZAF guys would have friends that had travelled for the occasion also.
I know it would certainly be true of some of the Officers who would have been to university with many of them.

Some of the RNZAF Education Officers for example would have studied alongside many of these blokes and they were not necessarily in the RNZAF at that time also. Some of those guys had 'interesting' backgrounds. The Psychs would be in a similar category, even some of the Engineering Officers and Pilots.

Many of the troops had joined the RNZAF as Boy Entrants or with not so much of a gap since school.
While that may have also been the case with most of the GD's many of the Officer trades took slightly older folk. Well after a few years at varsity probably and of course they would have been wearing the long hair and flares.

Three or four years of full time study together would have been the basis of many friendships.... it must have been a little difficult being looking at each other through different sides of the peri-fences.

I guess the same would apply to school friendships, almost everyone there would have only been out of secondary school a handful of years.

Any intermingling would have been low key and certainly not advertised. As Dave pointed out, some would take a dim view of it.

The real enemy at the time was still 8,000Km away...

If the usual suspects were on 'parade' that weekend we would have 3 go on to be Cabinet Ministers, and one to be a Mayor of a couple of cities.
Indeed two may have even gone on to be Prime Minister.

The boys in the blue team may struggle to better that.

[Dave Homewood]

I doubt the RNZAF guys would have been in uniform at the protest marches themselves.

Regardless, they would have been breaking Military Law, if that law was in force then. Maybe it was brought in because of them?

The real enemy at the time was still 8,000Km away...

Ah, so you've established now where Helen Clark was then?

[Dave Homewood]

I'd actually be interested to know, Longhairedgit, apart from the piss up, what was the actual point behind this protest? I mean even today most people do not know what was actually happening in that facility, and those who do are still not talking, so I am sure that a bunch of "radicals" and students were probably not fully briefed on the actual activities going on there.

So did you even know why you were protesting there on this occasion? Did one of the protest leaders simply feed you all a load of bull? Or was it simply about the booze and a chance to put two fingers up at authority?

[baronbeeza]

ahhh, Dave. You may have a point there. It (She?) may have been 8 yards away but no-one realised at the time.

I don't think the Air Force Law would stop you sharing a beer in town or at the camp.
I would however suggest there were memo's and missives in BRO's stating the situation very clearly. The Base WO and the Base Adj would be the chaps there..

Frowned upon indeed, and been exposed as a naughty boy if caught.
Marching down the street with a protest, while wearing uniform, would be an entirely different matter. You know the DCM would be pinned on your chest within days.

I note your point about the protesters and their level of knowledge. I think Owen Wilkes, for one, had a pretty good idea. Sure it may have been his slant on it but he did address the crowd and bring them up to speed.
While they may have been misguided at least they had some idea.
I very much doubt the Base Officers' briefings ever covered the flip side of the coin. That would have been the appropriate forum, especially with the security classification required etc.
It would have been mentioned for sure, but they would have been much more concerned with the security arrangements during the protest period. Very few within the RNZAF would have any true idea of the reason for the US presence, certainly not the troops and Police manning the fortifications.

Maybe the couple of RNZAF 'guests' were actually spies... that would show a level of commonsense and Kiwi nous.

[Dave Homewood]

OK then, what was it that Wilkes said was going on there?

I take it from your friendship with so many of the protesters and vast knowledge of what was happening there that you were one of the RNZAF members involved with them, beeza?

[shorty]

Dec 20, 2013 12:56:33 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

OK then, what was it that Wilkes said was going on there?

I take it from your friendship with so many of the protesters and vast knowledge of what was happening there that you were one of the RNZAF members involved with them, beeza?

Maybe he has just been around a bit longer?

[baronbeeza]

This thread has been going for a while so I just has to go back to see where we were a few months back.

I was never really friendly with any of these guys as such but certainly met any number of them. Ally Goffin was my English teacher in 1972 and we spent time at her place. She would have told us all about these protests but my recollections are a little hazy 40 years after the event.
I last saw her in Nelson/Motueka during 1975.

As far as the RNZAF goes all this was BMT. I did however go to a senior Education Officer's house for a Saturday night meal.. This would have been in 1983 or so, again 12 years later. What was interesting was listening to our various stories, apart from the mob we all knew similar shared friendships from their university times. I know one S/L had been a labourer during his holidays and had worked with my uncle.
Another Officer had starred in a porn movie but that may best be left for another day.
Some were wearing blue on that weekend back in '71, - I have a feeling a few were on the other side of the fence.
A very enjoyable and entertaining meal, great RNZAF comradeship..

[baronbeeza]

This from a little earlier in the thread. The first link would delve into what the protesters were being told back then.

I think the Tim Shadbolt comment came from something I read in the second linked article. The Police were reported as being happy with his efforts.

www.converge.org.nz/abc/pr31-119.html


www.scribd.com/doc/23707500/August-1986

I knew of Owen Wilkes and his team through the various West Coast connections throughout the '70's and into the '80's.
Some of my school teachers, yes the younger ones, were well into this lifestyle. It made for many interesting times and stories. It really seems like another world these days.

Tim appears to have done a good job at Woodbourne and this side of the story seems to think he was held in high regard. Perhaps he was a 'real' politician after-all.

[baronbeeza]

The younger guys here were obviously not about at the time and can't have a concept of what Woodstock, pop culture, the VN war, drugs, bikie gangs, and the conservative political times were about.
The politicians were fuddy duddies, in suit and tie. The youth were long haired and possibly trying to be seen to be different.

My school was divided, two seperate groupings of teachers. The 'hip' camp and the oldies.
I have not seen anything like those days since. The '60's and '70's stand out as a period in time where society was going through a transformation and the younger generation was more of a cult like atmosphere as opposed to a passing fad.

Most of the young adults in the early 70's would have looked like the protesters, the only ones that stood out were servicemen and similar.
In my eyes, and from my memories of the period, it would be the Defence force personnel that were the minority and would stand out like the proverbials.

As far as what was achieved. I would have thought heaps.
Norm Kirk came to power in a landslide.
CMT was abandoned, we were out of VN (as fast as could be expected).... and the country took off in an entirely new direction.
So much was going on, end of the 6 oclock swill, moon landings. To me I would liken it to going from black and white to colour.
Those pictorial magazines show the change very vividly. Gone were the men's cardigans, ties and stiff social functions.
The 1970's and the present day are more comparable.

Soon after the war officially ended the PYM and other similar groups fell victim to their own success. There was simply no need for them any more. John Minto did try and find some other cause I think..

The protesters were far from being the enemy. At the time they probably reflected mainstream younger generation thinking. Many of the RNZAF personnel would have had similar views. I wouldn't see it as an 'us and them' thing at all.

It was nothing like the greenies, Greenpeace, or whatever influence of today. They are just kid's play and a joke compared to the massive groundswell of change that was going on 40 years ago. The Vietnam war was just part of it but did tend to 'gel' everything together.
The war that started in 1965 was entirely different to the war that finished in 1975. It was almost as though we had changed planet during that 10 year period.

[longhairedgit]

A few questions and comments that seem to call for a reply.

I may have lead you slightly astray with my comment about the 2 RNZAF guys. They were not part of the protest as such but turned up at the campsite - I got the impression they were curious as much as anything else. The fact there were a number of very attractive young ladies present might have been an influence. What ultimately turned out to be a goodly supply of beer may have been another. Or maybe some enterprising officer sent them over in mufti to try and find out what was going on.

And did those protesting know what they were protesting about? Some may not have and come along for the party but the vast majority did, or thought they did.

Remember this was 1971 and the Vietnam War was in full swing. In 1970 there had been huge demonstrations against that war in all the major centres and many small ones  - as I recall there were over 30,000 on the streets of Wellington and 50,000 in Auckland. There was a huge groundswell of opinion that NZ was being dragged into another war that USA was not only wrong about but also losing and significant resentment towards USA, not only about the war but about a lot of other stuff as well. Many of that age group well remembered comments from their parents  about the yanks in WW2 who arrived here and lorded it over NZers when NZ soldiers had, at that time, already been away fighting for 2 or 3 years. The seeming arrogance of USA politicians and others didn't sit well either. In that environment, the US base at Woodbourne was an obvious target - rightly or wrongly the base was seen as potentially contributing to the Vietnam War as a means of communication and therefore, from the protestors perspective needed to be removed.

And the more those perceived to be in power claimed there was nothing wrong, then the more the protestors were convinced there was something hidden.

[baronbeeza]

My teacher certainly had an opinion, she had little hesitation in telling us everything from the 'Whole Earth Catalogue', the demise of the Beatles, the War and whatever else. Indeed if I remember we got the whole works, well everything except English and what was required to pass the exam.
A fellow student removed herself from the class after only 2 weeks as she thought she needed a change of teacher.
Towards the end of the year there was a lot going on, especially within the student teacher ranks. Come the exams I got high marks (very) in all my technical subjects but managed just 30% in English.
About then the school 'establishment' became aware of just what had been going on. I may have had a 'vast' knowledge of the protest circuit and what was happening and why but I certainly knew nothing about 6th Form English.

At the time of the protests I could have even been at Wigram. I did a couple of courses or trips there that year. One would have been the ATC JNCO course.

Going back to the changes we experienced during that 10 year period. Transistor radios, TV and then colour TV, cassette tapes, stereo's all become a major influence on the younger generation.

When you compare the year just gone, 2013 to 2003, the same 10 year gap. What is new ? Possibly very little difference.

I still listen to my Sound FM with the music of the period.
What are the classic years 1965 to 1975 possibly.. ?

They were certainly some good times. Even 'Dad's Army' Dave.
Truly classic years.

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks for that insight, Longhairedgit. I wasn't even one years old at the time this was taking place so I don;t really recall anything that was happening back then.

It's interesting to hear there were as many as 50,000 people protesting in Auckland, was that 50,000 actual protesters or does it include all the bystanders who came out of the shops to watch and wonder what it was all about?

I think the "No War For Oil" protest I witnessed in 1990 that marched up Queen Street would have been around 1000 to 2000 people marching, most of them at the front being the usual agitators, in the middle looked like a lot of university willy types, and the back was hundreds of anarchist type punks who all seemed to be spoiling for a fight. Pretty strange seeing "peace protesters" so aggressive towards the crowd watching. (thinking about it, the anarchist punk movement seems to have all but disappeared now, thankfully).

Being Saturday morning shopping time there were far more people watching than protesting. I never noticed the WAAF in uniform on the day but it was talk of the town at Whenuapai on Monday about her being matted and dismissed. I cannot recall her name. She was Admin I believe, so chances are she'd never have got near a war front line anyway.

Back to Vietnam, weren't all the New Zealanders who went to the war volunteers? There was no conscription in NZ in that war, was there?

Beeza, we had a couple of those hippy type teachers at high school in the 1980's too and largely they were among the worst teachers in the school in terms of actually learning practical lessons from.

[bigal007]

Hi all, Am new here, lived and worked in Blenheim from 1969 to 1980, dived with the marl underwater club, a guy called Dick Payne ,US Airforce longbank, woodbourne was a member and would not say anything about what was happening there, I do remember that the west end of the tarsealed strip was dug up one night and ,so we were told an earth low freq arieal was laid and resealed over, for listening through the earth???
. Interesting.My [e-mail]. thanks