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Post by ErrolC on Sept 1, 2011 22:08:12 GMT 12
Dave, Russia did not want a war with a strong Japan. They already had their hands full on their Western Front, the invasion of the USSR by Nazi Germany and her allies. Later of course the USSR did declare war on Japan, as we discussed in a previous thread. Lend-Lease supplies went to eastern Russia from the USA in Russian-flagged ships, 'past' Japan.
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Post by flyjoe180 on Sept 1, 2011 22:16:39 GMT 12
Bulgaria seemed to have been the only 'active' European Axis member escaped New Zealand's declaration of war then?
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Post by corsair67 on Sept 1, 2011 22:46:55 GMT 12
One of my distant relatives in Finland was telling me that he found it so strange to be fighting alongside German troops against the Soviets one moment, then a few months later he was fighting to drive some of the same German troops out of Finland. The Germans didn't leave Finland easily either, and many towns and villages in Finnish Lapland were burnt to the ground during their withdrawal. The communists were absolutely hated by majority of Finns, especially so after the civil war in 1918 - and in fact, there were still isolated incidents of blood-letting against communist in the western region of Finland up until the early-30s! By the way, New Zealand actually claimed a Finnish ship as a war prize in 1941 - the Pamir. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamir_%28ship%29
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Post by Tony on Sept 2, 2011 0:03:39 GMT 12
By the way, New Zealand actually claimed a Finnish ship as a war prize in 1941 - the Pamir. Of course! forgot about that. One of the lesser known Vichy posessions and the first British amphibious assault since the disastrous landings in the Dardanelles. The theater of operations was of course, Madagasca which was captured in 1942 in Operation Ironclad. Kiwis in the FAA took part in this operation flying from HMS Illustrious & Indomitable The Thai Air Force connection with the Japanese: ![](http://ww2db.com/images/air_ki30_3.jpg) Ki30
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Post by htbrst on Sept 2, 2011 7:37:52 GMT 12
I just stumbled onto something while searching for a different topic all together on Papers Past. Apparently at "one minute past noon, New Zealand Summer Time, on Sunday December 7" 1941, New Zealand formally declared war on Finland, Hungary and Rumania. So did we 'undeclare' somehow when they changed sides (and when was this ?) ...or should we be on the lookout for a Finnish invasion force sneaking in during the world cup ?
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Post by luke6745 on Sept 3, 2011 19:58:05 GMT 12
I heard that the first shots fired in anger during WWII were fired from Fort Dorset in Seatoun!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 3, 2011 22:48:46 GMT 12
Do you mean when they sank a Wellington-based fishing boat that failed to halt?
The legendary Jim Henderson made a three-part NZBC radio series sometime in the 1950's ot 1960's called "1939" all about NZ's entry into the war, interviewing lots of veterans who were involved. That included the gun commander from the battery who fired those first shots.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 3, 2011 22:52:14 GMT 12
by the way it is co-incidentally 71 years tonight since New Zealand declared war on Germany. Lest We Forget.
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Post by Luther Moore on Sept 20, 2011 0:03:11 GMT 12
Is the recording around anywhere to hear?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 20, 2011 2:11:00 GMT 12
It will be in the New Zealand Sound Archives in Christchurch. I heard it some years back replayed on National Radio's Sounds Historical programme.
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mroz
Flying Officer
Posts: 59
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Post by mroz on Sept 21, 2011 3:32:15 GMT 12
Erroic...thanks for that Turkey was indeed the country and I can see now the myth of the first aspect of my question declaring war on Germany. I did some internet research on declarations of war to learn that the Commonwealth of Australia in fact did not declare war on Germany but relied on the Kings declarations as inclusve of them because they did not opt for full independance until 1942. New Zealand on the other hand had a different legal opinion of self government of the "Dominion of New Zealand" Australia, became "fully" independent on 1 January, 1901, with the formation of the Commonwealth of Australia. The Australian Govt simply determined that it was necessary for a formal "declaration of war", given the strong historical links between Great Britain and Australia.
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andrez
Leading Aircraftman
Posts: 4
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Post by andrez on Sept 25, 2011 22:45:40 GMT 12
We would have looked bloody silly if the UK had changed their minds in 1939 then!!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 25, 2011 23:13:06 GMT 12
I'm sure the New Zealand High Commissioner to Britain would have been monitoring things pretty closely at the British end and ready to wire an urgent cable to NZ if there was a change of heart ahead of time.
Welcome to the forum andrez
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 25, 2011 23:23:52 GMT 12
In Australia's case here is an article from Wellington's Evening Post, Volume CXXVIII, Issue 56, 4 September 1939, Page 3, via Papers Past
AUSTRALIA AT WAR
"TRUTH WITH US"
MR. MENZIES BROADCASTS
SYDNEY, September 3. The Prime, Minister, Mr. Menzies, in a broadcast address from Melbourne tonight following Mr. Chamberlain's announcement, said: "It is my melancholy duty to inform you that in consequence of the persistence of the invasion by Germany of Poland and the refusal to withdraw her troops' Great Britain has declared war upon her, and as a result Australia is at war."
He reviewed the events leading up to the declaration, recalling Germany's acts of aggression, and repeated that the futile efforts made by Britain and France to keep the door open for negotiation and a peaceful settlement, of the Polish dispute had concluded.
"We, as a member of the great family of nations, are now involved in the struggle, which we must at all costs win and which we believe we will win," he said. "The truth is our companion on this journey, which may be long and arduous, and the truth must win. In the bitter months to come I appeal to you to observe calmness, resolution, and confidence, which, are more than ever required."
A proclamation issued yesterday declared the existence of a "danger of war" whereby the Commonwealth was empowered to take all necessary wartime precautionary measures by executive action.
All Australian warships are fully manned and provisioned and additional ratings and reserves have been called up and are standing by. The same applies to the coastal defences and other vital points. An adequate cargo fleet is being retained for Australian trade and also New Zealand, but the loss of ships from the regular services is causing! considerable rearrangements of loadings at the various inter-State ports. The Prime Minister has invited the leaders of the Opposition and Country Parties to meet him in Canberra on Monday to discuss the crisis and form a War Ministry.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 25, 2011 23:38:28 GMT 12
Check out the actual New Zealand Gazette Extraordinary that announced the war officially between New Zealand and Germany: paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP19390904.2.60&srpos=3&e=03-09-1939-05-09-1939--10--1-byDA---0fraser+war--THE NEW ZEALAND GAZETTE EXTRAORDINARY. WELLINGTON, MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 4, 1939. HIS Excellency the Governor-General has it in command from His Majesty the King to declare that a state of war exists between His Majesty and the Government of the German Reich and that such state of war has existed from 9.30 p.m., New Zealand standard time, on the third day of September, 1939. Given at Wellington this third day of September, GALWAY, Governor-General. P. FRASER, Acting-Prime Minister.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 25, 2011 23:54:11 GMT 12
Evening Post, Volume CXXVIII, Issue 56, 4 September 1939, Page 11
NO OPTION BUT WAR
PLEDGE TO BRITAIN
NZ WILL DO ITS PART
STATEMENT BY MR. FRASER
New Zealand is ready to play her full part in; the fight for democracy, justice, and freedom, said the Acting Prime Minister (the Hon. P. Fraser), in a statement issued last night on receipt of word that a state of war existed. "This is not an occasion for many words; it is a dark day in the history of the; world," said: Mr. Fraser. "The actions of Germany left the British Commonwealth no option but war in defence of the principles of democracy, justice, and freedom. It is with deep regret and sadness that I make this announcement, on behalf of the Government, and the people will receive it with similar feelings.
That will not, however, affect the determination of both Government and people to play their part. I would like to pay a tribute to the manner in which the British Government, has consistently and patiently tried to preserve peace. During recent weeks the New Zealand Government has repeatedly offered the support of this country to the United Kingdom in the honouring of its pledged word. The Government has reiterated that pledge again during the night, in a cable to the United Kingdom Government, the text of which is published in the Press.
WORK MUST GO ON. "New Zealand is ready to do its part in assisting Great Britain in the conflict. The people of the Dominion will, I know, throw themselves determinedly into any and every effort that may be required of them. Everything possible has been done to put the country into a state of preparedness both on the civil and the military sides. I have already given details of what has been done during the past few days in this respect. Statements are being published in the Press today setting out the various additional War Regulations and Orders which the occasion demands. There is no need for me to say much more at present. In the task that lies ahead much will be expected of everyone, and I know that every man and woman in the Dominion will play his or her part. The work and business of the country must go on, along with the added effort which war requires. I am certain that the people of New Zealand, as they have done in, the past, will respond unitedly at this time when the safety of the Commonwealth and of our very civilisation is at stake."
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Post by errolmartyn on Sept 26, 2011 10:13:35 GMT 12
Check out the actual New Zealand Gazette Extraordinary that announced the war officially between New Zealand and Germany: paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP19390904.2.60&srpos=3&e=03-09-1939-05-09-1939--10--1-byDA---0fraser+war--THE NEW ZEALAND GAZETTE EXTRAORDINARY. WELLINGTON, MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 4, 1939. HIS Excellency the Governor-General has it in command from His Majesty the King to declare that a state of war exists between His Majesty and the Government of the German Reich and that such state of war has existed from 9.30 p.m., New Zealand standard time, on the third day of September, 1939. Given at Wellington this third day of September, GALWAY, Governor-General. P. FRASER, Acting-Prime Minister. Note, however, that the timing was retrospective. "New Zealand acted with almost equal rapidity, but with greater respect for the forms of independent nationhood. Parliament was in session, but was not summoned. Cabinet, however, stood by to await the formal message from Britain which had been the agreed-upon signal for action. It arrived a few minutes before midnight on 3 September. On the same day, so the documents stand, the New Zealand Governor-General signed a proclamation that he ‘has it in command from His Majesty the King to declare that a state of war exists between His Majesty and the Goverment of the German Reich’, and that such a state of war had existed since the expiry of the British ultimatum, the issue of which New Zealand had previously approved. The proclamation was countersigned by Peter Fraser as acting Prime Minister. Then, at 1.55 a.m. on 4 September, a vigorously worded cable was despatched to London." (Political and External Affairs, F L W Wood. A volume of The Official History of New Zealand in the Second World War 1939–1945.) Errol
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Post by ErrolC on Sept 26, 2011 13:38:33 GMT 12
Note, however, that the timing was retrospective. Not as retrospective as the Australian one!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 6, 2018 23:23:31 GMT 12
The morning after New Zealand declared war on Germany, Acting Prime Minister Peter Fraser broadcast live to the nation through the radio network. This went out at 7.00am on the 4th of September 1939, and this transcript of his broadcast was in the Otago Daily Times on the 4th of Sep 39. He said:
"Events have moved very rapidly indeed since I made my statement in Parliament shortly after 5 o'clock last evening. It is impossible, of course, to give the details of what has been happening, but as one of its first steps the Government has arranged for a repetition from the New Zealand broadcasting stations throughout the night of the news reports from Daventry.
"Those who have been listening will not need to be told that a situation of the greatest gravity has arisen. It would appear that, without any genuine attempt at negotiation, and, indeed, without allowing the Polish Government any reasonable opportunity of considering the terms that the German Government laid down as the sole condition upon which it would consent to hold its hands, Poland was attacked at an early hour last night.
"Throughout the night I have been in close touch with the position, and in constant consultation with those of my colleagues who are principally concerned with the chiefs of the Naval, Air, and General Staffs, and with the officers of the Prime Minister's Department and the organisation for national security.
"During the night all necessary instructions have been given to meet any contingency. The Orders-in-Council that were passed last night are now in force, and you will read of them in the papers. They have also been extended to the mandated territory of Western Samoa and to the Island Dependencies of New Zealand.
"From an early hour this morning announcements have been made by the Minister of Defence calling up all the regular reservists and portion of the special reserve (Class III). Those concerned are asked to listen for this announcement, which is being repeated at regular intervals.
"Immediate steps have been taken to establish port examination services to examine and identify all merchant ships entering defended ports, to man the coastal defences, and to place guards at all vital points.
"The people of this Dominion will not need an appeal to remain calm, but it might be worth while to ask all concerned to await events as they come with resolution and fortitude.
"Every possible opportunity will be taken through the press and over the air to keep the public constantly informed of all reliable news, and all are urged to refrain from believing or repeating the rumours which may be expected to flourish at a time like this. The country may rely upon it that every possible step that is required is being taken, and that there is no cause whatever for alarm in New Zealand.
"The Government has already taken steps to assure his Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom that the Government and people of New Zealand entirely concur with, and strongly endorse, the steps that are still being taken by Great Britain in her unremitting efforts, even at this late hour, to avoid war and bloodshed, and her determination to honour her pledged word, and I have no doubt whatever that there will be unanimous approval in this Dominion for the fullest co-operation in any eventualities with Great Britain and the other portions of the British Commonwealth."
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 6, 2018 23:41:45 GMT 12
And this seems to be either a complete or a much fuller transcript of Michael Savage's national broadcast made from his Northland home on the 5th of September 1939. This comes from the NEW ZEALAND HERALD, dated the 6th of September 1939:
ISSUES AT STAKE
NAZI-ISM AND FREEDOM
MR. SAVAGE SPEAKS
BELIEF IN EMPIRE'S CASE
CONCERN OF ALL NATIONS
[BY TELEGRAPH — OWN CORRESPONDENT] WELLINGTON, Tuesday
"Both with gratitude for tho past and with confidence in the future, we range ourselves without fear beside Britain," said' the Prime Minister, Mr. Savage, in an address broadcast over New Zealand to-night. Mr. Savage spoke from his home at Northland and made his first public address since he underwent a serious operation early last month.
"The war on which we are entering may be a long one, demanding from us heavy and continuous sacrifice," Mr. Savage said. "It is essential that we realise from the beginning that our cause is worth the sacrifice. I believe in all sincerity that it is. None of us has any hatred of the German people. For the old culture of the Germans, their songs, their poetry and their music we have nothing but admiration and affection. We believe that there are many millions of German people who want to live in peace and quietness, as we do, threatening no one and seeking to dominate no one.
Worthless Promises "But we know, alas, that such a way of life is despised and rejected by the men who have seized and hold power in Germany. We know that those men have done, and are doing, incalculable harm to the true interests of their country, and that they are destroying the intellectual, artistic, moral and spiritual resources that their people have built up throughout tho centuries. In doing this they have for the time being cowed the spirit of a vast number of their best people.
"This work of destruction they have already carried into other countries," Mr. Savage continued, "and, in spite of denials, now intend to carry into Poland. If they succeed there they will next attempt the overthrow of Franco and Britain. Let us make no mistake about that. Of course, they repudiate any such intention, but fortunately for the world we know now what it has taken us a long time to learn, that their promises are worthless, are made only to gain an advantage for the time being, and are broken as soon as that advantage has been secured. Not a moment too soon have Britain and France taken up arms against so faithless and unscrupulous an adversary.
Nazi Philosophy "The fight on which we are now engaged is one whose issue concerns all the nations of the world, whether as yet they realise it or not," Mr. Savage said. "We are fighting a doctrine that springs from a contempt of human nature, a doctrine that government is the affair only of a self-selected elite, who, without consulting the people, may irrevocably determine what the people shall do and shall not do. The masses are to be used as instruments of power in the hands of their masters. They are to be given slogans and directed toward this or that objective approved by those masters, but never are they to be treated as free men, as individual and responsible souls.
"The individual man is submerged and forgotten — the intrinsic worthiness of his personality contemptuously ignored, freedom of action and expression is denied to him, dissent or criticism is brutally repressed. These are a few of the incidents of tho Nazi philosophy that is seeking to thrust itself everywhere over Europe to-day, and the rest of the world to-morrow.
Insatiable Paganism "Nazi-ism is militant and insatiable paganism," the Prime Minister added. "In its short but terrible history it has caused incalculable suffering. If permitted to continue it will spread misery and desolation throughout the world. It cannot be appeased or conciliated. Either it or civilisation must disappear. To destroy it, but not the great nation which it has so cruelly cheated, is the task of those who have taken up arms against Nazi-ism. May God prosper those arms.
"I am satisfied that nowhere will the issue be more clearly understood than in New Zealand, where, for almost a century, behind the sure shield of Britain, we have enjoyed and cherished freedom and self-government. Both with gratitude for the past, and with confidence in the future, we range ourselves without fear beside Britain. Where she goes we go; where she stands we stand. We are only a small and a young nation, but we are one and all a band of brothers, and we march forward with a union of hearts and wills to a common destiny.
Personal Thanks "In this critical hour of our own and the world's history, I feel that I should abuse my privilege of addressing you if I were to speak of matters affecting myself personally," Mr. Savage said. "For that reason, and that reason only, I say no more of a certain recent experience that I have had than this that it has taught me as nothing else could have done how quick to kindness the people of this country can be, and how easily political and other differences are extinguished by sympathy and goodwill. To-night I feel that I can say to all of you with a sense of certainty that to have never quite felt before. Thank you, friends, for your kindness that you have so generously shown to me.'
"To my colleagues who have so loyally in these anxious times carried on tho work of government in my absence, performing without complaint my tasks as well as theirs, I express my sincere gratitude, and I concur wholeheartedly in every decision they have made for tho safety and well-being of the State."
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