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Post by saratoga on Apr 13, 2018 17:14:36 GMT 12
I think the recent canceling of further oil exploration is an excellent reason to boost NZ defencsive capabilities, as we will now require a massive increase in spending to be able to defend our untapped petroleum resources.
Basically if we don't extract it someone else will, and they are unlikley to be asking permission.
Currently,apart from the polite gentlemens agreements and lawyers(!), what could we do if/when pirate drilling occurs?.
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Post by stereoimage on Apr 13, 2018 19:25:42 GMT 12
That is a pretty spurious threat luckily! The amount of close-range shore-based infrastructure needed to operate off-shore extraction is huge. It would be impossible for anybody to search for, let alone extract, any of our offshore resources without our consent. Also, the permit ban only applied to new ventures, companies with existing permits will keep theirs, and the resource potential of over 90% of our EEZ has already been assessed and is covered by existing permits, so it's a bit of a storm in teacup. Playing up to the greenies without much impact on industry and all that public relations stuff that pollies get up to If we really want to get the public behind our defence spending we need to promote something like a combined RHADRaS (Rapid Humanitarian Aid Disaster Relief and Security) force. That might sit better with the public, and they might let us have an LHD and an Ambibious Group with organic CAS support. Edit: By 90% I mean it has been mapped and permits applied for... not drilled into already obviously!
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Post by snafu on Apr 14, 2018 11:36:59 GMT 12
I think the recent canceling of further oil exploration is an excellent reason to boost NZ defencsive capabilities, as we will now require a massive increase in spending to be able to defend our untapped petroleum resources. Basically if we don't extract it someone else will, and they are unlikley to be asking permission. Currently,apart from the polite gentlemens agreements and lawyers(!), what could we do if/when pirate drilling occurs?. That would call for an increase in MPA aircraft and OPV/OCV for the navy, if anything like that were a armada of vessel would be needed to secure the red drill/extraction team whom to they have to past first to get to little ole NZ.
Unless the Chinese really do ramp up a naval presence in Vanuatu and possibly Fiji, then the strategic situation will tip far enough for NZG to reinstitute ACW.
In the mean time I would like to see RNZAF increase its capability to interact with the ADF in training and enhance working in battlefield strike/reconnaissance ISR with Tiger and or its replacement with a buy of 12x AT-6B Wolverine. while that is happening it also give's RNZAF exposure again in a variety of weapons available for Wolverine such as, Mk-81 (250 lb.) General-Purpose Bomb Mk-82 (500 lb.) General-Purpose Bomb GBU-12 (500 lb.) Paveway II Laser-Guided Bomb GBU-49 (500 lb.) Enhanced Paveway II GPS/Laser-Guided Bomb AGM-114 Hellfire Laser-Guided Missiles LUU-2 Illumination Flares
By doing this its a stepping stone into something more potent down the line whilst increasing combat capabilities currently available which would enhance a joint ADF/NZDF operation, being multi role it provides collaborative training(JTAC) between Army/Airforce and can provide civil support in HADR disaster area imagery and provide limited homeland defence/Security operations,
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Post by saratoga on Apr 14, 2018 12:34:52 GMT 12
Working that close with the Aussies would require us to become their eastern most state.
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Post by snafu on Apr 14, 2018 14:50:40 GMT 12
Working that close with the Aussies would require us to become their eastern most state. disagree,its still a sovereign capability but has more flexibility once working together utilising their strengths, AT-6 being able to exploit its abilty to expend heavier weapons in a controlled environment such as bunker busting with up to 500lb LGB'S or remain on station longer and or respond faster for CAS.
If you take ET for example RAAF had fast jets on quick reaction if needed but were being held in Darwin and Tindal had NZ (if they had the capability at the time)provided AT-6 for CAS response time would be significantly reduced whilst also providing a less overt platform then say a F/A-18 or F-111 or even A4-Skyhawks
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Post by saratoga on Apr 14, 2018 15:06:16 GMT 12
ET was 20 years ago.The RNZAF did have A-4s held at Darwin (they were returning from excercises in Thailand). My comment was more based on the increasing political and military differences between NZ and Oz.
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Post by horicle on Apr 14, 2018 16:06:59 GMT 12
My recollection is that 75 Sqn was returning from the Vanguard exercise and were in Singapore because they could not transit through Indonesian airspace (refuel in Bali) due to the international station. The RAF offered to tanker them around Indon airspace and the offer was declined. They were late getting home that year.
The what ifs had the Kahu A-4's been used is interesting as their Air to Ground capabilities probably exceeded anything the Aussies could bring to the party.
I wish I could remember.
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Post by richard1098 on Apr 14, 2018 17:24:24 GMT 12
My recollection is that 75 Sqn was returning from the Vanguard exercise and were in Singapore because they could not transit through Indonesian airspace (refuel in Bali) due to the international station. The RAF offered to tanker them around Indon airspace and the offer was declined. They were late getting home that year. The what ifs had the Kahu A-4's been used is interesting as their Air to Ground capabilities probably exceeded anything the Aussies could bring to the party.I wish I could remember. The RAAF had been operating F-111s for some time and had the F-18A/B entering service by the time the RNZAF commenced Kahu.
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Post by isc on Apr 14, 2018 23:02:29 GMT 12
WW2 they did put bomb racks on Tiger Moths. isc
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Post by skyhawkdon on Apr 15, 2018 9:33:18 GMT 12
My recollection is that 75 Sqn was returning from the Vanguard exercise and were in Singapore because they could not transit through Indonesian airspace (refuel in Bali) due to the international station. The RAF offered to tanker them around Indon airspace and the offer was declined. They were late getting home that year. The what ifs had the Kahu A-4's been used is interesting as their Air to Ground capabilities probably exceeded anything the Aussies could bring to the party. I wish I could remember. We (75 Sqn with 8 x Alpha Four Kilo's) had been in Darwin participating in Exercise Kakadu IV just before Timor blew up (we left Ohakea on 29 July for Darwin). On 16 August we went on to Kuantan in Malaysia as planned for the annual FPDA exercises, Exercise Malay-Kiwi (17-31 August) and Exercise Stardex 99 (1-19 September). We transited through Surabaya in Indonesia to refuel the A-4s and the Indonesian Army stood watching us with armed guards and an armoured vehicle with a big gun on top. We were under strict instructions not to wonder too far away from the aircraft! We were pleased to be out of there as the welcome wasn't very friendly. The Herc I was on blew a hydraulic pump just after take off which necessitated shutting down an engine, normally this would have required an immediate return to the airfield but no one wanted to go back to Surabaya, so we carried on to Singapore on 3 engines! We were at Kuantan with an Aussie F-18 Sqn when the shit hit the fan in Timor (right in the middle of Ex Stardex). The Aussies literally packed up and disappeared overnight. We turned up to work the next morning and they were gone! The RAN and RNZAF warships in the exercise also left. 5 Sqn were based at Butterworth with a P-3 for the exercise and also stayed there for a couple of weeks longer than planned. The only reason we didn't follow the Aussies was because we had no transport aircraft to get us to Darwin. All our Hercs and 727s were committed to transporting the NZDF's QRF to Darwin, including 4 x M113 APCs and 4 x Huey's and then transporting everything between Darwin and Dili. With our limited transport resources that all took time (all 5 Hercs and both 727's were involved, all were serviceable and none were on Phase/Group servicing at the time which was unusual and fortunate). So we waited at Kuantan for 2 weeks longer than we were supposed to be there and the P-3 sat it out in Butterworth. We didn't waste our time though, the Malaysians offered up Mig-29s and Hawks for the A-4s to play with every day and the RAF VC-10 that had been there for Stardex hung around in case we needed it to get back to Darwin. Eventually the Malaysians offered us the use of two of their stretched Hercs to get us back to Australia. These were joined by a RNZAF 727 which flew up from Darwin and the P-3 from Butterworth. We departed Kuantan on 24 September. To avoid Indonesian airspace we flew a very long round-a-bout route, going via Labuan (East Malaysia), Manila (the Philippines), Guam (mid Pacific!), Port Moresby (Papua New Guinea) to RAAF Amberley, arriving on 27 September. Some of the legs were right on the limit of the A-4s unrefuelled range (the RAF tanker had gone home by then). It was the first time our A-4s had been to any of those places. Three 2 Sqn Skyhawks flew up from Nowra to Amberley to meet us in case we were required in Darwin. But the situation in Timor had stabilised so we went home instead, arriving back at Ohakea on 28 September. It was the longest deployment I ever did on Skyhawks (we were away nearly 9 weeks). It was very unfortunate that we hadn't been deployed to Darwin in the early stages of the conflict, as that would have helped justify our existence in a few months time when there was a change of Government. It was a great opportunity lost and one that the Air Combat Force would ultimately pay a very high price for 2 years later! The Kahu Skyhawk would have been very well suited to providing close air support had it been required in Timor. As others have noted, at the time the Kahu Skyhawk had a superior NAV/Attack System to the Aussie F-18 and the AGM-65 missile which the Aussies didn't have. The Hornets could have focused on escorting duties while we did the mud moving.
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Post by snafu on Apr 15, 2018 9:43:47 GMT 12
ET was 20 years ago.The RNZAF did have A-4s held at Darwin (they were returning from excercises in Thailand). My comment was more based on the increasing political and military differences between NZ and Oz. Yes was aware that the A4 were still avaloble at the time, my point being that if a current situation was to arrive similar to ET the AT-6 Wolverine would play a dominate role for in country support being less overt than F/A-18F's as a diplomatic tool , leaving the bigger sticks outside the area but deadly avaloble if needed. This paper is a very old but still very valid strategic lesson for NZ, no need to revisit aunty Helen's anti defence stance but the core strategic needs for defence of the realm still applies www.victoria.ac.nz/hppi/centres/strategic-studies/publications/strategic-briefing-papers/East-Timor.pdf
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Post by snafu on Apr 15, 2018 10:54:46 GMT 12
My recollection is that 75 Sqn was returning from the Vanguard exercise and were in Singapore because they could not transit through Indonesian airspace (refuel in Bali) due to the international station. The RAF offered to tanker them around Indon airspace and the offer was declined. They were late getting home that year. The what ifs had the Kahu A-4's been used is interesting as their Air to Ground capabilities probably exceeded anything the Aussies could bring to the party. I wish I could remember. We (75 Sqn with 8 x Alpha Four Kilo's) had been in Darwin participating in Exercise Kakadu IV just before Timor blew up (we left Ohakea on 29 July for Darwin). On 16 August we went on to Kuantan in Malaysia as planned for the annual FPDA exercises, Exercise Malay-Kiwi (17-31 August) and Exercise Stardex 99 (1-19 September). We transited through Surabaya in Indonesia to refuel the A-4s and the Indonesian Army stood watching us with armed guards and an armoured vehicle with a big gun on top. We were under strict instructions not to wonder too far away from the aircraft! We were pleased to be out of there as the welcome wasn't very friendly. The Herc I was on blew a hydraulic pump just after take off which necessitated shutting down an engine, normally this would have required an immediate return to the airfield but no one wanted to go back to Surabaya, so we carried on to Singapore on 3 engines! We were at Kuantan with an Aussie F-18 Sqn when the shit hit the fan in Timor (right in the middle of Ex Stardex). The Aussies literally packed up and disappeared overnight. We turned up to work the next morning and they were gone! The RAN and RNZAF warships in the exercise also left. 5 Sqn were based at Butterworth with a P-3 for the exercise and also stayed there for a couple of weeks longer than planned. The only reason we didn't follow the Aussies was because we had no transport aircraft to get us to Darwin. All our Hercs and 727s were committed to transporting the NZDF's QRF to Darwin, including 4 x M113 APCs and 4 x Huey's and then transporting everything between Darwin and Dili. With our limited transport resources that all took time (all 5 Hercs and both 727's were involved, all were serviceable and none were on Phase/Group servicing at the time which was unusual and fortunate). So we waited at Kuantan for 2 weeks longer than we were supposed to be there and the P-3 sat it out in Butterworth. We didn't waste our time though, the Malaysians offered up Mig-29s and Hawks for the A-4s to play with every day and the RAF VC-10 that had been there for Stardex hung around in case we needed it to get back to Darwin. Eventually the Malaysians offered us the use of two of their stretched Hercs to get us back to Australia. These were joined by a RNZAF 727 which flew up from Darwin and the P-3 from Butterworth. We departed Kuantan on 24 September. To avoid Indonesian airspace we flew a very long round-a-bout route, going via Labuan (East Malaysia), Manila (the Philippines), Guam (mid Pacific!), Port Moresby (Papua New Guinea) to RAAF Amberley, arriving on 27 September. Some of the legs were right on the limit of the A-4s unrefuelled range (the RAF tanker had gone home by then). It was the first time our A-4s had been to any of those places. Three 2 Sqn Skyhawks flew up from Nowra to Amberley to meet us in case we were required in Darwin. But the situation in Timor had stabilised so we went home instead, arriving back at Ohakea on 28 September. It was the longest deployment I ever did on Skyhawks (we were away nearly 9 weeks). It was very unfortunate that we hadn't been deployed to Darwin in the early stages of the conflict, as that would have helped justify our existence in a few months time when there was a change of Government. It was a great opportunity lost and one that the Air Combat Force would ultimately pay a very high price for 2 years later! The Kahu Skyhawk would have been very well suited to providing close air support had it been required in Timor. As others have noted, at the time the Kahu Skyhawk had a superior NAV/Attack System to the Aussie F-18 and the AGM-65 missile which the Aussies didn't have. The Hornets could have focused on escorting duties while we did the mud moving. I gues that really shows how under resourced NZDF really was and still is in terms of stratgic transport capability, We know without a major shake up to the government the return of an ACF is just not going to happen. To get back to a standard to where you were will take a minimum of 10 years Future force 2035/JATF really needs to become heavier to give governent more options across the spectrum from HADR to medium/ high intensity combat that can expand the capability of joint operations, if Kiwi governments continue to devalue defence capability it should've prepared to lose its voice around the table in strategic direction
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Post by nige on Apr 15, 2018 12:37:49 GMT 12
My recollection is that 75 Sqn was returning from the Vanguard exercise and were in Singapore because they could not transit through Indonesian airspace (refuel in Bali) due to the international station. The RAF offered to tanker them around Indon airspace and the offer was declined. They were late getting home that year. The what ifs had the Kahu A-4's been used is interesting as their Air to Ground capabilities probably exceeded anything the Aussies could bring to the party. I wish I could remember. We (75 Sqn with 8 x Alpha Four Kilo's) had been in Darwin participating in Exercise Kakadu IV just before Timor blew up (we left Ohakea on 29 July for Darwin). On 16 August we went on to Kuantan in Malaysia as planned for the annual FPDA exercises, Exercise Malay-Kiwi (17-31 August) and Exercise Stardex 99 (1-19 September). We transited through Surabaya in Indonesia to refuel the A-4s and the Indonesian Army stood watching us with armed guards and an armoured vehicle with a big gun on top. We were under strict instructions not to wonder too far away from the aircraft! We were pleased to be out of there as the welcome wasn't very friendly. The Herc I was on blew a hydraulic pump just after take off which necessitated shutting down an engine, normally this would have required an immediate return to the airfield but no one wanted to go back to Surabaya, so we carried on to Singapore on 3 engines! We were at Kuantan with an Aussie F-18 Sqn when the shit hit the fan in Timor (right in the middle of Ex Stardex). The Aussies literally packed up and disappeared overnight. We turned up to work the next morning and they were gone! The RAN and RNZAF warships in the exercise also left. 5 Sqn were based at Butterworth with a P-3 for the exercise and also stayed there for a couple of weeks longer than planned. The only reason we didn't follow the Aussies was because we had no transport aircraft to get us to Darwin. All our Hercs and 727s were committed to transporting the NZDF's QRF to Darwin, including 4 x M113 APCs and 4 x Huey's and then transporting everything between Darwin and Dili. With our limited transport resources that all took time (all 5 Hercs and both 727's were involved, all were serviceable and none were on Phase/Group servicing at the time which was unusual and fortunate). So we waited at Kuantan for 2 weeks longer than we were supposed to be there and the P-3 sat it out in Butterworth. We didn't waste our time though, the Malaysians offered up Mig-29s and Hawks for the A-4s to play with every day and the RAF VC-10 that had been there for Stardex hung around in case we needed it to get back to Darwin. Eventually the Malaysians offered us the use of two of their stretched Hercs to get us back to Australia. These were joined by a RNZAF 727 which flew up from Darwin and the P-3 from Butterworth. We departed Kuantan on 24 September. To avoid Indonesian airspace we flew a very long round-a-bout route, going via Labuan (East Malaysia), Manila (the Philippines), Guam (mid Pacific!), Port Moresby (Papua New Guinea) to RAAF Amberley, arriving on 27 September. Some of the legs were right on the limit of the A-4s unrefuelled range (the RAF tanker had gone home by then). It was the first time our A-4s had been to any of those places. Three 2 Sqn Skyhawks flew up from Nowra to Amberley to meet us in case we were required in Darwin. But the situation in Timor had stabilised so we went home instead, arriving back at Ohakea on 28 September. It was the longest deployment I ever did on Skyhawks (we were away nearly 9 weeks). It was very unfortunate that we hadn't been deployed to Darwin in the early stages of the conflict, as that would have helped justify our existence in a few months time when there was a change of Government. It was a great opportunity lost and one that the Air Combat Force would ultimately pay a very high price for 2 years later! The Kahu Skyhawk would have been very well suited to providing close air support had it been required in Timor. As others have noted, at the time the Kahu Skyhawk had a superior NAV/Attack System to the Aussie F-18 and the AGM-65 missile which the Aussies didn't have. The Hornets could have focused on escorting duties while we did the mud moving. I would have thought if the Australian and NZ governments really wanted RNZAF 75 Sqn to relocate to Darwin immediately (to join the RAAF sqns on standby), then either the RAAF (transport aircraft) could have been tasked to assist 75 Sqn to leave at the same time as they were assisting the RAAF F-18's to leave? What would have been required - 1x additional RAAF C-130 (as RNZAF personnel could have joined the RAAF personnel on a RAAF 707)? Ditto could the NZ government have tasked a RNZAF c-130 and 727 delivering the QRF to Darwin to divert to Malaysia afterwards? Just some wishful thinking eg where there's a will there's a way, so wondering why 75 Sqn wasn't in the picture - looks like one or both governments didn't wish to prioritise that? Mind you logistically, the other issue may have been getting eg the ordanance (AGM-65's) from NZ to Darwin when the RNZAF transport aircraft were already tasked to support the Army? If so could explain why things turned out the way it did etc. If the RNZAF were ever to have an aircombat force again, perhaps some items (support and ordanance) needs to be pre-positioned in Australia?
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Post by skyhawkdon on Apr 15, 2018 13:11:34 GMT 12
Australia’s air transport & air to air refueling resources were just as stretched as ours at the time. The priority was to deploy the QRF from NZ to Darwin to acclimatise (it was mid winter in NZ!) and train before the actual landing in Timor. That was why the initial APCs, support vehicles, personnel and Huey’s were flown there. The main elements actually went by sea (a civil chartered vessel).
We were already acclimatised and sort of in theatre I guess! And yes the weapons and additional support elements would have had to been transported from NZ to Darwin if the A-4s were to carry live weapons. We had none with us in Malaysia. There were some down at Nowra for 2 Sqn but no missiles. I guess the Aussies felt they had things in hand with their F-111s and F-18s at the time. If a real shooting war had broken out with Indonesia then priorities would have changed rapidly and I would suggest getting the A-4s and their weapons there would have become a very high priority.
At the time the Gov’t only required two NZDF force elements to able to be deployed overseas at the same time. Our operational funding and resourcing were based on that assumption. Of course that all got thrown out the window when Timor erupted as almost all NZDF force elements were deployed! The ACF was the only one that wasn’t. It made a mockery of the Government’s funding of NZDF and highlighted the serious shortcomings in some areas. But the lessons weren’t learnt by the Government and nothing changed as a result. If the same scenario developed today we would be very stretched to deploy and sustain more than 2 force elements in a combat situation. Our combat capability today is nowhere near what it was back then.
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Post by saratoga on Apr 15, 2018 13:17:26 GMT 12
NZDF hasn't recovered from the multiple pers rotations required to man the Timor deployments, we'd be lucky now if we could do one rotation at Timor manning levels.
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Post by skyhawkdon on Apr 15, 2018 18:49:15 GMT 12
ET was 20 years ago.The RNZAF did have A-4s held at Darwin (they were returning from excercises in Thailand). My comment was more based on the increasing political and military differences between NZ and Oz. Yes was aware that the A4 were still avaloble at the time, my point being that if a current situation was to arrive similar to ET the AT-6 Wolverine would play a dominate role for in country support being less overt than F/A-18F's as a diplomatic tool , leaving the bigger sticks outside the area but deadly avaloble if needed. This paper is a very old but still very valid strategic lesson for NZ, no need to revisit aunty Helen's anti defence stance but the core strategic needs for defence of the realm still applies www.victoria.ac.nz/hppi/centres/strategic-studies/publications/strategic-briefing-papers/East-Timor.pdfThat paper is well worth a read and the lessons in it still apply. Australia has learnt and continued to upgrade its combat capability. Sadly we did not and went in the other direction. No longer can we provide a 20% boost to Australia's combat capability if called apon.
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Post by mcmaster on Apr 15, 2018 19:35:49 GMT 12
Interesting discussion. Don, do you recall which RAAF Hornet squadron was with you at Kuantan? The official F111 history says 6 Pigs deployed to RAAF Tindal from Amberley and we’re there for around 4 months. The F111Cs were kept at readiness with 2 armed on standby with “concrete” bombs with laser guidance.
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Post by skyhawkdon on Apr 15, 2018 22:02:07 GMT 12
I think it was 77 Sqn but it could have been 3 Sqn.
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Post by 30sqnatc on Apr 16, 2018 17:48:42 GMT 12
I read a document today which made me realise the Army currently probably has more qualified pilots than the Air Force all be it for small remotely piloted aircraft. Perhaps we should be discussing regaining an ACF by weaponising UAV - with small weapons
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Post by snafu on Apr 17, 2018 19:20:13 GMT 12
I read a document today which made me realise the Army currently probably has more qualified pilots than the Air Force all be it for small remotely piloted aircraft. Perhaps we should be discussing regaining an ACF by weaponising UAV - with small weapons Your still looking at roughly 17/18 mil USD for a MQ-9 Reapor plus all the accessories that go along with it and may not be survivable in highly contested air space with modern A2/AD , but it's an alternative in giving an long overwatch capability with crew being able to rotate over a typical up to 24/30 hours pending the distance and weapons load out, but the future question is jamming and cyber security of the aircraft
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