RNZAF Grumman Duck pilot air to air claim!

[Dave Homewood]

OK, this has me a bit baffled. I have been reading an article from the US magazine "FLYING" from October 1944, which tells the story of the New Zealanders flying in the Pacific alongside the US forces. The author is obviously an American writer, and up tioll this point everything is accurate, and the story has been telling about how keen and tenacious the NZ'ers are in the fight. But then there's the following statement:

"Some months ago a New Zealander in an old slow Grumman Duck was flying a search "up the Slot" - that is up North in the Solomons. En route he spied a formation of six Jap Zeros. The normal reaction of anybody in a Duck would be to scuttle for home or fly into the nearest cloud and pray. However the New Zealand search pilot promtly abandoned the search and dived into the middle of the Zeros. In some manner never quite explained, he knocked down one Jap and frightened the rest into an immediate departure."

Now it's true that the RNZAF never used nor were allocated Grumman Ducks but this means nothing because it's also true that RNZAF individuals were occasionally attached to US units to fly other types, and in some cases they flew US types that were loaned to NZ units but not officially on RNZAF books. For example a pilot on No. 25 (Dive Bomber) Squadron was apparently allocated his own US L-4 Grasshopper for spotting before their attacks on Bougainville. He also had a Corsair for the same task, if his diary is to be believed. So it is possible that perhaps some such one-off saw an RNZAF pilot flying a Duck.

But if he downed a Jap Zero why have we not heard about it in books such as Air To Air by Chris Rudge? It was obviouslky claimed if the reporter heard about it (if the story was true and not a Mess tale that the reporter fell for).

What do you guys reckon about this?

Which units were flying the Duck up the Slot in 1944? That might be a good place to begin I guess.

[JDK]

Never heard the story, and I'd say I'm a Duck enthusiast, if not an expert. However one should also note that Duck accounts are scantier than they should be, apart from a few oft repeated ones.

First issue is the Duck did not have a forward firing fixed gun, only a .30 cal fitted in the observer's position, which itself was often left out.

Some guesses -

1/ Bar tale for the greenhorn journalist, as Dave says.

2/ Genuine but unsuccessful claim, not validated by proof, story 'disappears'.

3/ Type not familiar to a US journalist (i.e. everything not-American) gets parleyed into a US type.

4/ Some other explanation!

[Dave Homewood]

Yes,

I'm wondering if it was a FAA Walrus perhaps (ie the Pusser's Duck). We had them on both Leander and Achilles with kiwi pilots. Did they ahve a forward firing gun James? And did any claim kills?

A very odd story that I tend to not believe, but an interesting one all the same.

[chewy]

The only model of the Duck was the J2F-2 that had a forward firing machine gun. The aircraft only had a top speed of 190mph. The only story of an air to air kill by a duck that i have heard of was in the Mediteranean sea. The pilot claimed to have shot down a Messerschmitt Me323 by shooting out one of its engines.

[shorty]

I wondered if it was a mangled version of the account of the NZ Hudson that downed a Zero(?) while on patrol.All you have to do is change the aircraft type and the number on board!

[Dave Homewood]

Shorty, are you thinking of the Hudson crew flown by Max McCormack that claimed the RNZAF's first air to air kill? In that case, they had attacked a submarine but the bombs didn't work so they were stooging home when thewy noticed a Mitsubishi Pete travelling much the same route. Max simply crept up behind it till within range and opened fire. There was no diving into six Zeros - I've never heard of any Hudson crews silly enough to dive into a pack of Zeros actually. I think that was the only proven Hudson air to air kill, off the top of my head.

[JDK]

Dec 14, 2009 12:50:55 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

I'm wondering if it was a FAA Walrus perhaps (ie the Pusser's Duck). We had them on both Leander and Achilles with kiwi pilots. Did they ahve a forward firing gun James? And did any claim kills?

The Walrus could be fitted with a flexibly mounted gun in the nose and amidships open position - not on Scarff mountings as is often stated but Supermaine designed mounts. Production Walruses didn't have any fixed forward firing guns - although they did experiment with a fixed cannon!

As to Hudson, I presume you mean the only RNZAF Hudson 'kill' perhaps, as RAAF and RAF Hudsons did remarkably well, considering with everything from Zeros to Do 18s knocked down.

[Dave Homewood]

Yes, I was referring to RNZAF Hudsons, sorry. I have heard that New Zealnaders scored kills with Hudsons in the RAF.

[chinapilot]

Further to see that on the 30/4/1943 J2F-5 [Duck] #00734 with MAG-14 was written off in Auckland on that date...

[Dave Homewood]

MAG-14 was the US Marine's Dauntless squadron whose SBD-3 aircraft No. 25 Squadron RNZAF took over. Very interesting, I never knew a Duck was operating at Seagrove. I wonder if it was the floatplane version, as that station had a beach it could operate from.

[Bruce]

The Ducks were all Amphibians - they had a big single centre float built integral with the fuselage (so there wasnt a "landplane" option) with the standard Grumman wind out wheels as on the Wildcat.

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks Bruce. I thought they had normal landplane versions too. Must be mistaken.

[alanw]

Jan 25, 2010 12:02:35 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

Thanks Bruce. I thought they had normal land plane versions too. Must be mistaken.

Dave

Possibly you might have been thinking of the
Vought OS2U Kingfisher? Came in both Float plane
and under carriaged versions




Hope that helps

Alan

[Dave Homewood]

Correct, that is what I was mixing it up with. Sorry. Nice photos. I wonder if any of them came to NZ, or if any kiwis ever flew the Kingfisher.

[angelsonefive]

A major user of the floatplane version of the Kingfisher were the larger warships of the USN ( cruisers and above ) where they were catapulted off the ships for scouting and gunnery direction services.
Any such ships calling in at NZ harbours would have carried at least a couple of Kingfishers.

As for NZ'ers flying them? Very likely, as the Kingfisher was supplied to the RN Fleet Air Arm in some numbers.

[shorty]

I have seen a photo of a US cruiser at Picton with a Kingfisher on board.

[Andy Wright]

The RAAF had a few Kingfishers - www.airforce.gov.au/RAAFMuseum/research/aircraft/series2/A48.htm - might there have been some Kiwi 'action' there?

I have pics somewhere of the remains of one when it still lived at Whaleworld in Albany, West Oz. I believe it and other Kingfisher bits are now with Precision Aerospace in Wangaratta for long-term restoration (relying on memory here so might be wrong).

Brett Freeman's Lake Boga At War features photos and even artwork of some of these aircraft.