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Post by Kenny on Jun 14, 2010 23:42:53 GMT 12
I found this photo the other day, pilots with Short Barrelled Steyrs (350mm barrell i think  ) how often are RNZAF pilots armed like that? Would any other aircrew or pilots be armed in that way? Or is this simply the nature of the job 3Sqn has? Attachments:
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 15, 2010 0:50:13 GMT 12
Where is this, and what is he helicopter to the rear of the Iroquois? The colours seem to look RAAF. Is this on an overseas exercise or operation?
Are they actually pilots or crewmen? It is interesting. in my time if required to be armed the aircrew members all had pistols, I don't recall any carrying Steyrs or rifles.
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Post by classicman on Jun 15, 2010 2:25:56 GMT 12
Hi Dave,
The bloke on the left is wearing PLTOFF/FGOFF tapes so I would guess they are pilots. He is also carrying a 9mm in a holster on his right hip if you look closely.
It was common practice to issue aircrew with the short-barrelled Steyr carbine and pistols on the Herc force. Even when shafted with an exercise ground job (BALO, TACP, MAOT etc) we would be given the carbines which were easier to shove under the seats in the Hilux. The grunts were most jealous as they rarely saw these weapons.
We usually left the hand cannons in the onboard safe as losing them was not an option!
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kiwirotorwrench
Warrant Officer
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Post by kiwirotorwrench on Jun 15, 2010 7:26:42 GMT 12
Definitely pilots Dave, look at the big watches they are wearing! And also note the jibbering ballast is still back in the Huey cleaning out the candy wrappers and freshup cans thrown back there.
KC
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Post by phil on Jun 15, 2010 8:46:06 GMT 12
One on the left is a pilot, one on the right is a crewie, image taken in the Solomon Islands if I rememeber correctly.
The 'carbine' steyr (actually it was the SMG barrel to be completely correct) is now out of service and replaced by the 407mm barrel (which is the proper carbine barrel). The problem with the very short barrel pictured is that the barrel actually ends just past the gas parts, this meant that the gas did not have sufficient time to act on the gas piston to ensure consistent operation.
The air crew also carry Sig 226 pistols although when this photo was taken the Browining may still have been in service.
In the ACF days the Skyhawk pilots would carry L9A1 Browning pistols.
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SeanG
Warrant Officer
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Post by SeanG on Jun 15, 2010 17:32:28 GMT 12
In the ACF days the Skyhawk pilots would carry L9A1 Browning pistols. How and where were the Brownings carried? Was it a holster attached to the vest or a separate item? SeanG |
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Post by phil on Jun 15, 2010 17:40:17 GMT 12
Leather shoulder holster over the top of the equipment.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 15, 2010 19:02:40 GMT 12
The helicopter survival vests are totally different nowadays from the ones I used to service by the look of it. Does anyone have decent phoptos of the 1990's version (green mesh) and these modern camouflaged ones to make a comparison perhaps? Is there an inflatable life preserver under that camouflaged collar on the vest?
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SeanG
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Post by SeanG on Jun 15, 2010 19:10:36 GMT 12
Leather shoulder holster over the top of the equipment. Outstanding! Thanks Phil  |
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SeanG
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Post by SeanG on Jun 15, 2010 19:11:39 GMT 12
The helicopter survival vests are totally different nowadays from the ones I used to service by the look of it. Does anyone have decent phoptos of the 1990's version (green mesh) and these modern camouflaged ones to make a comparison perhaps? Is there an inflatable life preserver under that camouflaged collar on the vest? If it is the same as the one's used on the Airtrainers in the late 80's then I have one in my collection... I can take photos if you're interested? SeanG |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 15, 2010 19:38:24 GMT 12
The Airtrainer pilots used simply life preservers. I packed hundreds of them but nowadays can't even recall their name. The helicopter crews had a different jacket made of a dull green nylon mesh with pockets fill of survival gear like a pack-saw, fishing wire, first aid, high energy lolly tins (they were damned yummy!) and a big shark knife, in case they came down in the wilderness. The guys could have them customised to suit their comfort and needs and I'm sure one of them had a pistol holster sewn onto his when he went to Bosnia or somewhere like that. Really cool jackets they were. They used the same life preservers as the Airtrainer ones when over water from memory but they were seperatye and not integral with the survival jacket, as the ones above seem to be from the photo.
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SeanG
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Post by SeanG on Jun 15, 2010 19:40:44 GMT 12
That sounds right... been a wee while since I thought about all of that Mine is the plain vanilla life preserver one, a Mk13 or something?? <scratching head here> SeanG |
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Post by phil on Jun 15, 2010 19:47:26 GMT 12
Not being S&S I don't know the proper designations, but the helicopter ones are called ALPs, or Armoured Life Preservers. They can carry ceramic plates in them.
I seem to recall the A4 ones included the koch fitting and strap attachments for the seat.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 15, 2010 20:42:46 GMT 12
The A4 pilots had a different vest again from the helicopter crew vests I remember. So it looks like the modern ALP's serve the purpose of the two bits of equipment of my time.
Sean, I think rather than 13 they were Mk 15's. I don't know why the memory has blurred on these as I worked on them practically every day for a couple of years. They had a flashing light with a sea battery in one pocket and a SARBE in another, and a small CO2 bottle. But from memory nothing else was carried on these hence the helo crews having a more specific survival vest. From memory they were made bt RFD in the UK.
I'll bet Beagle and Les will know the names of both the life preservers and the helicopter vests.
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Post by phil on Jun 15, 2010 21:48:29 GMT 12
Yes, the A4 ones were very different to the Helicopter crew's ALPs.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 15, 2010 23:18:41 GMT 12
Ooh yes, the survival jackets had little rocket flares in them too. I always wanted to fire one but wasn't allowed.
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Post by timmo on Jun 16, 2010 12:04:53 GMT 12
I think we definitely need armed pilots......legs help too (sorry, couldn't resist  ) |
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cribble
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Post by cribble on Jan 10, 2011 15:05:47 GMT 12
For at least two deployments to Malaysia (early 80's) A4 pilots carried a 9mm pistol (plus one spare mag of ball) on nav or practise tactical trips over the jungle.
On one Five Power Defence Exercise, on landing back at Butterworth "Rockets" and his wingman were captured (as an umpire battle-inject) and duly escorted away by keen young Malaysians with M16s (no bullets). Apparently the look on their faces when Rockets showed them his (loaded, but empty chambered of course)9mm was a joy to behold.
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Post by phil on Jan 10, 2011 16:32:49 GMT 12
They carried loaded Brownings in Australia too.
For shooting crocodiles.
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Post by phil on Jan 10, 2011 17:50:28 GMT 12
There was a lot of work done to find a suitable holster for the Huey pilots, the standard issue Bianchi M9 leg holsters did not sit well with the armoured seats, eventually S&S designed a custom holster to be worn with the ALPs that didn't interfere with the airframe or the controls.
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) how often are RNZAF pilots armed like that? Would any other aircrew or pilots be armed in that way? Or is this simply the nature of the job 3Sqn has?
)