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Post by lumpy on Jul 16, 2010 20:55:03 GMT 12
The trouble is , that its not just a case of cops being armed . ( They already have a " gun safe " in one in four police vehicles ) They would need to literally have their weapons " in hand " every time they knocked on an unknown door , or approach an unknown vehicle ,if it were to prevent situations like in Christchurch ( and Napier ). Even then it might not prevent the same outcome .
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Jul 17, 2010 3:10:45 GMT 12
Yep...that Molenar chap in Napier completely out-gunned anything in the Police armoury. With his mindset, it wouldn't have mattered how well-armed the police were if the three police officers had been wearing guns in holsters. In fact, he would probably have opened up on them inside the house instead of outside it and there would have been three dead cops instead of only one.
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Post by baz62 on Jul 17, 2010 13:27:41 GMT 12
And the sick mindset of some of these people see the police as the enemy and care little for others. I agree Grant that even having a gun on their person might not have prevented what happened as somethings cannot be predicted. There is no simple solution (apart from my personal view...........murder and or selling drugs you go away and NEVER come out)
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Post by avagwhiz on Jul 17, 2010 14:04:46 GMT 12
A couple of months back the police raided a building down our road which was being used by a couple of "Headhunters" to manufacture "P"and do other antisocial things from.Meeting the Armed Offenders Squad covering the property entrance while the gates were opened was an eyeopener for several of our "lawabiding" locals and being flagged down by 2 cops,1 carrying a M16 aimed at u and the other with a Glock holstered certainly induced me to stop my vehicle when driving further down the road!Personally I have no problem with them all carrying side arms.I just hope they are trained to hit what they aim at.Remember the 23 shots fired at the dog in Porirua without hitting it not to mention the courier on the NWMotorway who died. Out here we are fast becoming"do it yourself" as the police are 30 mins away,dont bother to check out burglaries and arent interested in stock thefts or stolen vehicles.We have our own "Community Patrol" and are looking at video cameras and even lasers locked into our alarm systems so we know if someone is on our land.When that happens we dont ask them in for afternoon tea either.The most effective deterrent is a machete but at night a 12 gauge is a good comforter.Welcome to Auckland 2011.
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Post by obiwan27 on Jul 17, 2010 17:57:46 GMT 12
I'd like the Police to have a range of tools available to do their very dangerous (at times) job, including the ready availability of firearms. They assess the situation and take the tools required with them. Even so, we are something like 70 odd years behind the US in having an armed police force, not too bad if we are 'finally catching up'. It's less a statement upon the police and more about NZ society.
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Post by Peter Lewis on Jul 18, 2010 18:17:26 GMT 12
The bottom line is that the Police need and will always need the co-operation of the majority of the general population in order to maintain law and order. In my view, having been in many countries where the Police are routinely armed, carrying of weapons distances the Police from the general public and creates a "them and us" situation on both sides.
Consider Sir Robert Peel's original principles for the creation of an effective police force: 1 The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder. 2 The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon the public approval of police actions. 3 Police must secure the willing co-operation of the public in voluntary observation of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public. 4 The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force. 5 Police seek and preserve public favour not by catering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law. 6 Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice, and warning is found to be insufficient. 7 Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent upon every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence. 8 Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions, and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary. 9 The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.
If you arm the Police as a matter of course you no longer have a police force, you have an army.
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Post by baz62 on Jul 18, 2010 18:26:50 GMT 12
There already is a "them and us" as far as the criminal fraternity is concerned. Noone can really know what its like for a police officer having to deal with the daily possibility of being injured or word in the line of duty. A Soldier only deals with that during a war (generally). For most cops it's fulltime.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 18, 2010 19:25:16 GMT 12
This has been an interesting debate, but i feel that perhaps my original intention for posting has been somewhat misunderstood by some. i have no objection to the police doing what they need to do to protect themselves when the situation arises. I know a number of police officers, some fairly well. In fact at least four former Safety and Surface Workers that I once knew in the RNZAF got out and becmae police - Vaughn McAllister, Mark "Frankie" Taylor, Lizzie Henderson and Jason 'JJ' Stewart. But that is an aside.
My point was how striking it seems that society has in the past few years broken down so badly in New Zealand that police now have to arm themselves with semi-automatic weapons simply to guard crime scenes. The slaying of the police dog last week and the wounding of the officers shows that serious crime can erupt anywhere, anytime nowadays, and it is totally unexpected. Up till about ten years ago we were happy in the knowledge that this country was one of the safest there was. A murder on the news was a rather uncommon event and thus was somewhat shocking. When I was a teenager the biggest problem this country seemed to have was people sniffing glue. Now we have huge rings of foreign students supplying gangs with ingredients to make the evil methamphetamine drugs that are totally changing parts of society. We have one or two murders or brutal beatings/rapes per week. We have cops being shot on a regular basis. We have taxi drivers and shop owners being murdered for a few dollars. Burglary is totally out of control, because there is no longer the police resources to follow up on the crime. A large portion of New Zealand society these days have never enjoyed the sedate NZ lifestyle of the past and have recently moved to this country from a variety of hotspots, bringing their own sets of values which have much less discipline and respect attached. Perhaps there is also merit in the arguments that the incredibly violent films and video games, not to mention rap music, these days affects the weak minded into assuming that is how life should be lead. Whatever the reasons, New Zealand is not the great place it once was. We're no longer safe, we're no longer green and clean, we're no longer the friendly community we once were. People are now driven by money and greed and there is less and less respect shown in all areas, business, driving, the lot. It saddens me that we have lost such a fantastic lifestyle that NZ once had, not so long ago. It is now a mish-mash of all the cultures we used to tut-tut at and think "Thank God we are not like them."
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Jul 21, 2010 1:07:33 GMT 12
This is the “Tom Scott” cartoon which will be published in The Dominion Post newspaper later this morning.... It's a bit of an irreverent piss-take, but I suppose that's what cartoonists do sometimes!
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Post by obiwan27 on Jul 21, 2010 21:47:46 GMT 12
Someone is likely to complain about that cartoon I suspect. Legalising pot would create more problems than it solves in my humble opinion. I prefer to get high on life and the occasional brewski thanks :-)
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Jul 23, 2010 0:10:37 GMT 12
Today's schoolkids, eh?
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Post by stu on Jul 23, 2010 9:23:58 GMT 12
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Post by timmo on Jul 23, 2010 9:30:49 GMT 12
I guess the crux of that, and one that I should force myself to practice more and more, is to start social change with YOURSELF and to shape what you want society to be by your actions. In other words, instead of complaining about dirty streets etc, pick up rubbish.
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Post by flyjoe180 on Jul 24, 2010 19:43:37 GMT 12
Well said timmo.
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