Does anyone else find it disturbing...?

[Dave Homewood]

Does anyone else find it disturbing to see on the news report tonight where they are talking about a suspected murder in South Auckland, that the female police officer who was outside the house guarding the scene was carrying a machine gun?

(Or perhaps it is better described as an automatic rifle, but it would be a machine gun to the press if they shot someone with it.)

Is Auckland really that intense a place nowadays that police have to go around armed like this? What is NZ society coming to?

[lumpy]

I didnt see it , but I would imagine it would best be described as a " semi-automatic rifle " , as fully automatic wepons are illegal in this country - even for police and armed forces . My knowledge may be a little out of of date , so please feel to correct me if that law has changed .
Its just more poor reporting

[Dave Homewood]

I'm fairly sure the Steyrs we used to fie in the RNZAF were automatic, unlike the semi-auto SLR's before them. The Army had however had automatic M16 rifles before the Steyrs.

This rifle on the news was like a more modern version of an M16. Not the sort of thing any kiwi is used to seeing being carried on the footpath of their residential neighbourhood.

[stu]

Jul 6, 2010 8:08:27 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

This rifle on the news was like a more modern version of an M16.

I sure I heard somewhere that it's a Bushmaster - www.bushmaster.com/catalog_law_enforcement_index.asp - but don't quote me on that.

[Dave Homewood]

Yes, that looks about right.

[kiwithrottlejockey]

The Police switched to using Bushmaster semi-auto rifles for general use to uniformed officers several years ago at about the same time they switched from using Smith & Wesson .38 revolvers to Glock 9mm semi-auto pistols.

Although we officially have an unarmed police force, in reality many squad cars these days have an armoury in the boot containing Bushmaster rifles and Glock pistols (especially at night). Also, many sole-charge police officers in country areas have a locked armoury in their police vehicle. And, it is common practice for dog handlers to be armed with a Glock pistol whenever they are on a callout, due to the fact they are often working on their own (with their dog) going into cordoned areas without the backup other police officers have, so are often the first to confront a bad bastard who may be desperate.

[Dave Homewood]

That is fair enough when confronting an armed offender in a tense situation. But simply gaurdng a crime scene in broad daylight, an armed officer seems very overkill and looks like something from Africa or the Middle East.

[obiwan27]

The crime scene in question was where a guy had been shot and killed so maybe the protocol due to the nature of his death was that any officer guarding the scene should be armed in case the offenders returned to the scene?? If I was appointed on guard duty alone, I'd want to be armed too. However you can be certain that the media would prefer to have footage of an armed officer with which to sensationalise their coverage. Am I right or just being cynical about that last thing??

[DragonflyDH90]

The military certainly do have fully automatic weapons.

[Dave Homewood]

I was not having a go at the media presentation of this story. I was simply commenting that the image of our normal everyday police (ie not AOS) standing in a residential street in New Zealand with a high powered automatic weapon for her protection is a rather disturbing image, reflecting how badly degraded our society has sadly become.

Maybe you are all ok with that sort of thing?

[43willys]

fully automatic wepons are illegal in this country - even for police and armed forces . My knowledge may be a little out of of date , so please feel to correct me if that law has changed .
Its just more poor reporting

The law has never changed, it is quite legal to own a fully automatic weapon in this country as long as you have the right class of license for them. There are plently of people out there with 50cal Brownings, 303 Vickers, Uzi's etc etc in their collections.

[lumpy]

Okay , had a bit of a google . It seems if you have a "C" class endorsement ( that of a collector of weapons ) you can indeed own automatic weapons , BUT , you CANNOT fire such weapons .
The highest endorsement that enables you to own a weapon that can be fired is " E " class , which is Military Style Semi Automatic ( MSSA) , which means it is illegal to use a fully automatic weapon ( so I wasnt totally wrong ) , but you can own them .
Military rules may well be different , although I do remember a recruiting ad in the eighties being frowned upon for showing a SLR being fired in auto mode ( although this was partly because the SLR wasnt really supposed to fire fully auto )
( sorry Dave , gone a little off your orignal topic )

[Kereru]

Jul 6, 2010 18:18:36 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

I was not having a go at the media presentation of this story. I was simply commenting that the image of our normal everyday police (ie not AOS) standing in a residential street in New Zealand with a high powered automatic weapon for her protection is a rather disturbing image, reflecting how badly degraded our society has sadly become.

Maybe you are all ok with that sort of thing?

Have to agree with you Dave I wonder just what we (speaking for us older folk) have done for this to happen or better what could I have done to prevent this situation. Since moving to Takanini almost every day a situation in the local streets rears its ugly head. Just a few weeks ago I was coming home during the morning along Takanini School Road hoping to turn in to Airfield Road and it was cordoned off with a Police man standing there with a rifle in his hand as I approached he waved me on frantically so no turning and I took the long way home. We all need to do what we can but drugs and money are a real problem here in paradise. Where does it stop? It is a small minority that make it tough for the rest of us. I see Bill English said the Corrections Department will become the biggest government department soon so what can we do about it? Very sad indeed that we are coming to this, does anyone have any answers?

I sometimes think bring back compulsory military training more as a teach one self some real self discipline, respect for others and authority.

Colin

[b10m]

Maybe the Bill Bratton approach is what is needed to lessen the impact of crime.
Bill Bratton was the head of the New York State Transit police who in the early 90 borrowed from the
"broken windows" theory of academics George Kelling and James Q Wilson
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Bratton
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixing_Broken_Windows

[Radialicious]

Years ago I would have been surprised to see such a thing in NZ. However after watching NZ's serious criminal behaviour escalate over the last few years, I would not be upset if our Police became armed day to day. It would be just a reality as to where NZ crime has developed IMHO.

[kiwithrottlejockey]

Well I guess this morning's events in Christchurch show us why the cops are arming themselves in New Zealand more often as we get more and more like America every day.



Officers shot, dog killed in Christchurch

Armed police cordoned off Buccleugh Street, Phillipstown,
today after two police officers were injured and a police
dog was shot dead. Two men were taken into custody.

By GREER McDONALD - Stuff.co.nz with NZPA | 2:02PM - Tuesday, 13 July 2010


A map of the shooting scene.

TWO POLICE OFFICERS have been shot and injured and a police dog killed in Christchurch.

Police have stormed a house on Buccleugh Street, in the suburb of Phillipstown, and taken a man — handcuffed with his face covered in blood and his shirt and trousers torn — away in a police car. A second man has also been arrested.

The house had been surrounded by police after reports of gunshots. A police dog was killed and two police officers suffered gunshot wounds.

The body of the police dog is lying in the street. The injured officers were reportedly shot in the leg and jaw. It is believed a .22 rifle was involved in the incident.

A St John's Ambulance spokesman said paramedics attended, but did not take any patients to hospital. "Anyone who was injured was taken to Emergency Department by their police colleagues."

A cordon blocks off parts of Cashel Street, Hereford Street, Linwood Avenue and Buccleugh Street.

WITNESSES

Hannah Johnson, 18, was in her flat on Buccleugh St when the incident happened right outside her house.

"I was sitting in my room and I heard all these guys, so I went and looked out my gate and there was this guy with his hands on his head, and the cops had him down on the ground then took him away," she said.

"I heard one gunshot, but that was further down the road."

Ms Johnson said the police stayed in the area for some time after the incident.

"They're just standing behind their cars with these massive guns."

Neighbour Matthew Pilcher was home with his mother when the action began and watched the arrest unfold from his window less than 20 metres away.

At about 11.30am, police began to negotiate with the suspect. Pilcher said the "scruffy, bearded" man was shouting and swearing at police.

"He was going, ‘how's your mate, how's your mate?’. I think that was about the shot cop."

Pilcher said he had seen a police dog take the man to the ground.

"I think he [the suspect] put his gun on the clothes line. I saw the dog attacking him. He's stopped swearing."

"Bascially he's put it [the gun] up there, they sent the dogs in and had guns pointing at him, three guns. Then the dog took him down."

Another person, who declined to be named, was in nearby Cashel Street and said they heard a single shot and saw a man doubled up outside a house in Buccleugh Street.

"They had a guy down on the ground who's since been taken away. We thought he'd been shot," they said.

A nearby resident on Olliviers Road said he went to check his mailbox around 11.20am and was told to get back inside his house by a police woman.

"I hadn't heard the shots." he said.

"But I took off back inside as fast my feet would take me."

He said the scene, about 150m from his house, was surrounded by more than seven police cars.


The house had been surrounded by police after reports of gunshots. — RICHARD COSGROVE/The Press.


A man is arrested and led from the scene of a shooting in suburban Christchurch. — DAN TOBIN/The Press.


A police dog was killed and a police officer suffered gunshot wounds. — DAN TOBIN/The Press.


Reader-submitted photo of the scene at the armed incident at a Buccleugh Street house.


Reader-submitted photo of the scene at the armed incident at a Buccleugh Street house.


Reader-submitted photo of the scene at the armed incident at a Buccleugh Street house.


Reader-submitted photo of the scene at the armed incident at a Buccleugh Street house.

GOVERNMENT RESPONSE

Police Minister Judith Collins said she would be travelling to Christchurch.

"I am being updated as events unfold," Ms Collins said.

"I will be travelling to Christchurch this afternoon, and hope to visit the officers involved, and offer any support I can."

"This incident serves to remind us that the job police do in keeping the community safe can be dangerous and unpredictable."

TOLL

The police dog killed in Christchurch today was the first to be killed in the line of duty in almost three years.

It was the 23rd dog to be killed in the line of the duty since 1972 and was the sixth to be shot dead.

The last police dog killed while at work was Enzo, killed in Tauranga, on August 9, 2007.

www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/3913851/Officers-shot-dog-killed-in-Christchurch

[obiwan27]

I think with the pattern of drug/related incidents + crims with weapons over the past 2 years in particular police have no choice but to up the ante. This particular bust was an unexpected development but it seems fair enough that in future if drugs are likely they go in armed, at least with tasers. It's no use not carrying weapons just to please johnny public who like to live in the past and believe NZ Police Officers should not be armed. The officer's safety is at risk at the best of times and I for one think that officers in all busts or at least all drug busts should be armed.

[kiwithrottlejockey]

From what I understand, they weren't intending to do a drug bust this morning. They were looking for a mental health patient and when he wasn't at the address they expected him to be at, the cops knocked on the next-door neighbour's door to see if they had seen the person they were after, and they smelt cannabis, so decided on the spot to search the neighbour's premises under the Misuse of Drugs Act under which provisions they don't need a search warrant. That's when it all turned to custard when the neighbour got nasty.

[thomarse]

Back to Dave's original theme, no, I don't like it and am not ready for it in my NZ

The sight of them swaggering around our airports Glock-on-belt gives me the s**ts to be frank, largely because it seems that it comes with a certain body language which their training has unfortunately not addressed adequately.

[baz62]

Jul 16, 2010 18:16:54 GMT 12 thomarse said:

Back to Dave's original theme, no, I don't like it and am not ready for it in my NZ

The sight of them swaggering around our airports Glock-on-belt gives me the s**ts to be frank, largely because it seems that it comes with a certain body language which their training has unfortunately not addressed adequately.

Tell that to the family of the next unarmed cop who gets shot and killed then.