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Post by turboNZ on Oct 27, 2005 0:11:17 GMT 12
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Post by turboNZ on Oct 27, 2005 0:12:45 GMT 12
and more.. and last one,.. Hope you like Cheers, Chris
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 27, 2005 17:34:59 GMT 12
FANTASTIC!!!
Thanks so much for sharing these, an amazing glimpse into a piece of history.
I wonder if they removed the crashed Hercules or if it's still there - like so many other wrecked planes. Do you know the details of the crash?
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Post by turboNZ on Oct 27, 2005 18:40:22 GMT 12
No I don't sorry. They are great pics and yes that is my Dad (aged 24) standing on the tailfin
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Post by JDK on Oct 27, 2005 22:53:58 GMT 12
Hi Chaps, It's less common for wrecks to be left in Antarctica and the Arctic nowadays - my wife's sister works in Canada's arctic removing 'junk' and contaminants from the far north. Remember the RAAF Museum's Walrus was brought back from Heard Island in 1980. That said, there certainly still ARE wrecks in both polar regions.
Cheers James
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 28, 2005 9:07:37 GMT 12
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 28, 2005 9:14:53 GMT 12
The US Antarctic Hercules operations have always used skis and also use JATO. Interestingly the RNZAF Hercules have never used either on the ice despite constant amazement from the Yanks, and never had an incident like this.
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Post by turboNZ on Oct 28, 2005 14:21:39 GMT 12
Ah that's great Dave !!!!!!
Thanks for doing that !!!!
I always remembered Dad saying it crashed on take-off, this confirms it. Excellent !!
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Post by corsair67 on Oct 28, 2005 15:42:50 GMT 12
I think that particular Herc suffered a JATO malfunction at a critical moment during takeoff, and that a couple of personnel died in that incident. Can anyone confirm? All my books on Operation Deep Freeze VXE-6 operations are sitting in a box at my parent's place in Christchurch, and I'm here in Canberra - Bugger!
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Post by corsair67 on Oct 28, 2005 15:54:44 GMT 12
It pays to Google before I open my big mouth! Found this info on the web at - www.vaq34.com/vxe6/"The third plane lost during Deep Freeze 71 was an LC-130F, BUNO 148318 on Febuary 15, 1971. The Hercules was taxiing on the skiway at Williams Field for a flight to Christchurch. It taxied around the Ground Controlled Approach building in poor visibility, and the left main ski went up over a 5 1/2 foot snow bank. The right wing hit the ground and broke between the two engines. A fire, feed by fuel and fanned by high winds destroyed the aircraft (VXE-6, 1971)" (from "United States Aircraft Losses in Antarctica")
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Post by Brad on Oct 28, 2005 16:40:07 GMT 12
The US Antarctic Hercules operations have always used skis and also use JATO. Interestingly the RNZAF Hercules have never used either on the ice despite constant amazement from the Yanks, and never had an incident like this. The US Herks have not always used skis and JATO. Many standard US Herks have operated down there over the years. The SKI birds routinely use JATO. This is because the weight of the skis takes away from the payload. The difference is made up with more power. JATO isn't used on every operation. You are right, the RNZAF never has crashed a Herk down there. But the haven't flown near the number of sorties the USAF has. The Ski Herks also land at places on the ice that standard Herks, USAF or RNZAF, can't get. That is where most of the accidents have happened. Air New Zealand did manage to crash a DC-10 into the side of Mt Erebus, killing 257 people in November of 1979.
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Post by turboNZ on Oct 28, 2005 20:04:50 GMT 12
"Air New Zealand did manage to crash a DC-10 into the side of Mt Erebus, killing 257 people in November of 1979." Hey Man !!!!! That's not in good taste !!! You can't make a comparison with NZ's worst air disaster like that.
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Post by steve on Oct 29, 2005 0:53:01 GMT 12
true ...turbo.. such a comparison is from outfield however brad does make a good point with operation deep freeze... I would imagine the USAF res. flights to the ice would be way in excess of ours. I could be wrong but understood that the RNZAF only makes a couple of flights down there each season? Do the c17s fly there often if at all?
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Post by Brad on Oct 29, 2005 3:38:04 GMT 12
It wasn't my intention to make a comparison between the Air NZ crash and anything else. If I had been making a comparision, I would have said "Air NZ killed 257 people, Air America only killed 210, so New Zealand won the prize". I was just pointing out that they crashed into Mt Erebus and killed 257 people. I just looked at it as adding to the conversation about airplane accidents on the ice. No offense intended. To answer your question Steve, yes the C-17s fly in there on a pretty regular schedule now. Over in the WIX thread on this subject, I put some pictures of when one of the times I went down there in the C-17. warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5332
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 29, 2005 12:05:16 GMT 12
Brad, thanks for your input mate. Most appreciated. I apologise for my statement which you've proven to be wrong. I was going on what I heard many times in the RNZAF from several people who'd operated down there, who said the US Hercules ops always used the skis and JATO. I had also heard that JATO caused lots of problems on take off, etc.
It was not meant to be a them vs us statement, just that we operated differently, that's all. It's true that our aircraft don't do nearly as many ops to the ice too. Scot Base is much smaller than the US facilities down there.
Your photos on Wix are stunning by the way.
What's this about Air America? Did another airliner crash in Antarctica too? Or was this just an example? I have worked with people who were involved in the body recovery from the Erebus DC-10 crash. It was quite horrific for them, especially as the Hercules's got further north and into warmer climate, causing the thaw. Terrible.
Also when I worked in the Parachute section at RNZAF Wigram we once hosted a detachment of US parachute packers who were preparing for the summer drops. They were there for about two weeks, packing cargo chutes in our hangar. Really good blokes. When they departed, they left a huge stack of small cargo chutes behind. We thought they were coming back but never did, and eventual telephone enquiries found that they didn't want them and we could keep them. As they were not a type used in the RNZAF they were surplus to us, and they were cluttering up our hangar, so the boss ordered to get rid of them. So we were giving them away to everyone and anyone who wanted one. They made good car covers, etc. We were even trading them for packets of biscuits for morning tea. They must have been worth about $10,000 each, and we'd have had at least 30 of them. Amazing how they simply didn't care about them. Surely they'd have been on someone's inventory and would be missed. I heard so many stories like this from guys who'd exercised with the US forces (by my time the departure from ANZUS had curbed such outings), and they'd talk about how much the Americans would dump or give away. Apparently the Kiwis always picked up what they could use that had been dumped, and often came home with more gear than they left with. By contrast with our tight budget, in our military if so much as a magazine clip goes missing there's hell to pay.
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Post by steve on Oct 30, 2005 2:02:08 GMT 12
Great c17 pics brad...C17s in auckand is a rare sight howver i did spot a couple at whenuapai recently transporting some kiwi soldiers on deployment. Dave...your recollection reinforces my understanding of US forces disposal techniques here in WW2...I like it!
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Post by Joe Hawkins on Nov 2, 2005 10:37:28 GMT 12
A few bits of information about the US ski Hercs.
The USAF was the first operator of the ski Hercs, it was the operated by the 61st Troop Carrier Squadron of the Tactical Air Command from Sondrestrom AFB.
They flew twelve ski-equipped C-130D (C-130A) aircraft.
In 1959 the US Navy was looking for a modern replacement for the different kinds of ski equipped aircraft that VX-6 operated in Antarctica.
Even though the US Marine Corps was the first to buy the C-130 the US Navy was the first to receive and operate the C-130.
VX-6 received 4 ski-equipped LC-130F (C-130B).
Flight operations (for the Americans) have been from crushed rock, glacial ice, seasonal ice, prepared snow or unprepared show runways.
Crushed rock, glacial ice and seasonal ice operations are refered to as "wheeled" operations.
The Navy built a crushed rock runway back in the 1950's, it was used by the R4D-8L (DC-3) and the UC-1B Otter aircraft amongst others. This runway is no longer in use by wheeled aircraft, how ever, the helos still use it to this day.
The Navy (now civilians) build a runway on the seasonal ice (sea ice) (refered to as "The Ice Runway") that is the main runway from season open up (WinFly - third and fourth weeks of September) and season open (second week in October).
This runway stays in operation until about the middle of December when the sea ice starts to melt and break up. This is used for WHEELED operations only (skis on ice tear the teflon coating off and cause all sorts of structural damage). USAF C-141's, C-5's and now C-17's, Italian C-130's and New Zealand C-130's also operate from this runway 24/7 until it is closed.
There is also a blue ice runway called "Pegasus" (named after the US Navy C-121 aircraft "Pegasus" that crashed on that runway.
This runway is carved from glacial ice and is prepared during the off season. All of the same aircraft that operate from the seasonal ice runway also operate from Pegasus.
Pegasus runway augments the seasonal ice runway. It is used for most of the year, one of the main reasons why it is not the main runway is that it is located about 7 miles from McMurdo and about 7 miles from Willy Field while the seasonal ice runway is about a mile and a half from McMurdo.
When the weather gets warm (and the sun shines) Pegasus runway starts to melt, although not from the top but rather from under and inside due to the suns rays refracting through the ice and melting the ice underneath. If Pegasus is not going to be used the civilians cover it with a thin layer of snow to prevent the suns rays from reaching it.
In mid-November Willy Field (prepared snow runway) is opened up for (limited) flight operations, and when the ice runway is closed then all operations shift to Willy field. This brings to an end of all major wheeled flights to Antarctica. Wheeled aircraft can not land on snow runways, no matter how well they are prepared.
This is when the ski eqipped Hercs of (now) the NYANG make money.
During this time a limited number of wheeled aircraft still operate from Pegasus, how ever, most of the USAF heavies have gone back to their state side units for their regular deployment schedules.
No other country has ski equipped Hercs. The USAF did sell the Peruvian Air Force 2 ski equipped C-130D's (the only other country to operate ski equipped Hercs). Both of those Hercs have been scrapped as of 2002.
Australia was trying to work out a deal to lease the ex-US Navy LC-130's, but politics stopped that one dead.
The US Navy has operated non-ski equipped Hercs in Antarctica, however, they were (of course) limited to flying from either the ice runway or Pegasus runway. Both the US Marines and the USAF have operated wheeled Hercs to and from Antarctica.
The "crashed Herc" was recovered and repaired in the mid 80's and operated with VXE-6 in Antarctica for another 5 years. It was sent to the boneyard at Davis-Monthan and was reactivated to fly with VX-30 out of NAS Point Mugu as a targets/range bird. It was once again retired to the boneyard in 2004.
Joe Hawkins
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Post by turboNZ on Nov 2, 2005 21:36:03 GMT 12
Fascinating info, Joe !!! Thanks for that. The Herk you referred to as recovered - is this the same one that my Dad is standing on the tail of? Didn't think there would be much left there worth recovering...
Cheers
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Post by corsair67 on Nov 2, 2005 22:09:51 GMT 12
Turbo, I think Joe's referring to another Hercules (tail code XD-321) which was recovered in the late 1980s. Unfortunately, another of their Hercs crashed whilst bringing in equipment for the recovery of '321' on 9th Dec 1987, killing two personnel. R.I.P. You can read about it here - www.vaq34.com/vxe6/vxe6aircraft.htmI used to love watching the Hercs operating out of Harewood, and when I was really little I used to think they arrived back in Christchurch with snow still on their skis! I still recall an incident in about 1984(?) when one of the Hercs had a problem and they couldn't retract the skis, so they had to land it on the tarmac at Harewood without wheels. The amount of sparks that flew out from under the aircraft when she touched down was pretty spectacular, and I think the crew set some kind of speed record for abandoning the aircraft as soon as it came to a stop! I felt really sorry for them as they flew along off the coast dumping fuel for about an hour, as it can't be much fun wondering if everything will go okay when you touch down. Very brave guys indeed.
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Post by turboNZ on Nov 2, 2005 23:07:42 GMT 12
Ah, thought as much, Corsair67..
I remember that incident with the Herk landing skis-down, was all over the news.
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