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Post by kiwirico on Sept 5, 2010 19:16:13 GMT 12
Hi guys, I would like to know which other type of jet trainers have been evaluated by the RNZAF before the Macchi MB.339C was chosen as the winner? Any information available and perhaps pictures of RNZAF crew evaluating the other types Thanks.
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Post by Bruce on Sept 5, 2010 19:30:00 GMT 12
From Memory at the time, the three main contenders were the Macchi 339, the Siai Machetti S211 and the Casa 101. Outside contenders were the BAe Hawk and the Dassault Alpha Jet. Interesting - all European types....
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Post by kiwirico on Sept 5, 2010 19:43:31 GMT 12
From Memory at the time, the three main contenders were the Macchi 339, the Siai Machetti S211 and the Casa 101. Outside contenders were the BAe Hawk and the Dassault Alpha Jet. Interesting - all European types.... Thanks Bruce... I think by that time Europe was the main sources of jet trainers world wide Any more information about the evaluation of the CASA 101 Aviojet and SIAI S.211 welcome. Are there pictures/stories available from RNZAF test pilots who flew these types for evaluation against the lovely Macchi? A big hug from sunny Holland.
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Post by skyhawkdon on Sept 5, 2010 20:56:49 GMT 12
There was also an Argentinian jet trainer evaluated from memory, but the Hawk was the top runner, but also the most expensive. The deal Aermacchi offered was very good because they already had most of the aircraft built from another contract that had fallen over and were keen to move them on. The other types were all test flown and evaluated but no one in the RNZAF was really serious about them. The Hawk was the best performer and most suitable for the role. The Macchi was a lot cheaper for a very similar cabability. The rest is history!
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Post by obiwan27 on Sept 5, 2010 21:46:25 GMT 12
The Hawk was the best performer and most suitable for the role. The Macchi was a lot cheaper for a very similar cabability. The rest is history! Typical NZ government. Their 'best' option when choosing procurement for the Air Force is always the cheapest option, not the best. Especially as far as the past 30 years or so goes....
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 5, 2010 22:30:06 GMT 12
It is interesting that the Air Force also wanted the Hawk to replace the Skyhawk back before Project Kahu was decided on. If things had been different we may have seen hawk trainers and attack aircraft together, a bit like the Vampire days.
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Post by yogi on Sept 5, 2010 22:52:22 GMT 12
Thats interesting dave, could the hawk have really provided a superior capability compared to the skyhawk?
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Post by mumbles on Sept 5, 2010 23:10:22 GMT 12
Thats interesting dave, could the hawk have really provided a superior capability compared to the skyhawk? You could ask the Malaysians (? I think) since I believe they operated both at various points. One thinks a Sea Eagle equipped Hawk 200 would have had a much improved anti shipping capability at least. I'm pretty sure that was marketed as an option for that aircraft.
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Post by corsair67 on Sept 5, 2010 23:12:56 GMT 12
Thats interesting dave, could the hawk have really provided a superior capability compared to the skyhawk? I think Dave is referring to the Hawk 200 single seater - which was a popular option with the Govt at the time, as I believe it was going to be a hell of a lot cheaper to procure compared to anything else that the RNZAF was interested in. Now, isn 't that a surprise! I think the Argentinian jet trainer Don refers to is the Pampa - which I think is just another variation on the Alpha jet theme.
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Post by kiwirico on Sept 6, 2010 3:44:34 GMT 12
It is interesting that the Air Force also wanted the Hawk to replace the Skyhawk back before Project Kahu was decided on. If things had been different we may have seen hawk trainers and attack aircraft together, a bit like the Vampire days. Very interesting to read, I think that should have been a mix of Hawk 100 series (trainers) and Hawk 200 series (single seat combat variant)! Nice option indeed! Also for logistic reassons a great buy if that happened back time Yep, the Argentine aircraft you mentioned was the IA.63 Pampa aircraft, a copy of the German/French Alpha Jet with one engine, and the size of the SIAI S.211. Still, I do like the Macchi MB339 very much, personally my favorite trainer at the moment... Still like to know if one of you guys knows any pilot who also flew in the CASA 101 and S.211 trainers.... any chance cheers
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Post by skyhawkdon on Sept 6, 2010 8:29:51 GMT 12
Steve Moore did all the evaluation test flying. He is still in the RNZAF (now an Air Commodore).
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Post by Calum on Sept 6, 2010 14:58:17 GMT 12
IIRC The hawk 200 was but a paper airplane at the time it was being considered as an A-4 replacement . And no way was it as capable as an A-4
I remember seeing the sale stuff for the hawk, C 101 and MB 339 in the CO's office at 14 Sqn when locking up one night.
The Mb 339 ended up with 90% of the capabilty of the Hawk for about 1/2 the cost
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 6, 2010 16:09:15 GMT 12
Yes the Hawk 200 didn't fly till 1985, but the Hawk 100 was being discussed as an option in the earlier evaluations. An article in NZ Wings in November 1983 listed the possible replacement aircraft for the Skyhawk as being: F-18 Hornet Mirage 100 F-16 Fighting Falcon Jaguar Harrier II F-20 Tigershark Harrier Hawk 100
I stress this was the opinion of a journalist who wrote the article Arthur Gatland, i have no idea if this was based on official thinking and if the author was part of the evaluation team.
However I recall reading somewhere later than this article that the RNZAF were mostly keen on the Hawk but I don't know if it was the 100 or 200 model, and that they were also keen on the F-5 and F-20 options. All three were massively cheaper than the others listed I believe. In the end they went with the cheaper still option, Kahu, which worked out pretty well in the end.
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Post by skyhawkdon on Sept 6, 2010 20:30:07 GMT 12
It was interesting talking to the Malaysian pilots and maintainers at Kuantan after they replaced their Skyhawks with the Hawk 200 (I was there in 1999 and 2000). They would have rather kept their Skyhawks! The Hawk had modern avionics (actally the exact same radar as we had in the Kahu Skyhawk) but it was slower, could carry less and had less range. In ACM with our Skyhawks in 1999/2000 we had a 20:1 kill ratio against them! They are very much a poor mans fighter. They were never seriously considered as a Skyhawk replacement in the RNZAF. But they were used as a comparison with the Skyhawk and other types in the Whineray Report. As Calum says they were the best aircraft (the -100 variant) under consideration for the Strikemaster replacement. Interesting what could be found on desks when you were key orderley eh Calum! I can recall other similar "interesting" reading!
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Post by skyhawkdon on Sept 6, 2010 20:30:49 GMT 12
Thats interesting dave, could the hawk have really provided a superior capability compared to the skyhawk? I think the Argentinian jet trainer Don refers to is the Pampa - which I think is just another variation on the Alpha jet theme. Yes that was it Craig.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 6, 2010 21:05:44 GMT 12
Gees, I never read anything on desks as Key Orderly. I wanted to lock up quick and get to the Mess before the grub all ran out.
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Post by Calum on Sept 7, 2010 9:29:12 GMT 12
Unlike you S and S types us Sqn people occasionally had to work past 1630
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 7, 2010 11:11:51 GMT 12
Not my fault I was at the sharp end, and not on squadron.
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Post by kiwirico on Sept 8, 2010 2:30:47 GMT 12
Steve Moore did all the evaluation test flying. He is still in the RNZAF (now an Air Commodore). That's nice to hear you know a name; could you perhaps bring me in contact with Steve More (or sent him a message from me?) Thanks SkyhawkDon
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Post by beagle on Sept 8, 2010 6:05:17 GMT 12
Unlike you S and S types us Sqn people occasionally had to work past 1630 GGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR excuse me but some of us S&S people, me included, did 4 tours on Sqns. And we also did Duty Crew, and SAR Crew. I can also remember doing all the lubes on A checks on Herks too. Plus all the other usual Sqn going s on such as refuelling, marshalling, towing, happy houring, overseas trips, prop changes, wheel changes, pre flights.
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