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Post by flyjoe180 on Dec 18, 2010 9:08:54 GMT 12
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Post by strikemaster on Dec 18, 2010 12:32:10 GMT 12
Holy cow, batman. Boy did I just get a history lesson and more important a lesson in the obvious.
I can see points raised that irk me and please me. One thing that can be read between the lines is how much influence the USG has on their local media.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 18, 2010 12:53:52 GMT 12
I wish Wikileaks would actually release interesting files, such as the JFK assasination files, or the files that prove the US Government created the whole UFO myth, or the files between Wellington and Washington about the sale of the Skyhawks.
Personally I think Julian Assange should be strung up for treason, and Wikileaks shut down. But it would be nice if they released something that actually matters instead of all the red tape bumph he's coming out with.
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Post by corsair67 on Dec 18, 2010 13:30:46 GMT 12
Wow, that is so surprising! Who would have thought the US is/was concerned with NZ seemingly not pulling it's weight in regional issues, and also pulling away from it's traditional allies, Australia and the US!!!! Another 'surprise' from the files of Wikileaks......  My main problem with Wikileaks is that I really don't know if Assange is doing all this for the right reasons. He has publicly stated that he "likes to crush bastards", but I sometimes get the distinct feeling he is actually more interested in the notoriety all this Wikileaks stuff brings him - rather than 'saving the world' or "crushing bastards". Also, his blase attitude about whether he could be sure the names of Iraqi and Afghani civilians had been removed from all the documents that Wikileaks released about the war in those two countries appalled me. He seemed more interested in embarrassing the US, than considering what may happen to anyone named in those documents, should the Taliban or Al-Qaeda find those people. Much of my distrust of him is based on the fact that he used to be a hacker - and while I think some hackers have the good intention of simply making companies and governments work harder to ensure their websites and servers can't be hacked into, many hackers are simply after some kind of publicity - much like taggers "look at me, look at me" attitude. I also find it appalling that people have been protesting about Assange's arrest, as if it is all because he leaked material about the USA - when he has actually been arrested because Sweden would like to charge him for sexual assault!!!! And how many of these supporters of Assange would have any idea who PFC Bradley Manning is?   |
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Post by madmac on Dec 18, 2010 14:24:05 GMT 12
One can make the following observations about Wikileaks:
there is a sight chance this (the leak) maybe a counter intelligence operation or the like. The best way to sell a lie is to use 95% truth. The effect on the US position is neutral, a lot of the information released is beneficial to them.
No electronic data is truly secure. This data is believed to have been carried out on a portable hard-drive you can't call that a secure system.
It is absolutely nothing compared to the PRC's thief of data from the US DOD (I believe its averaging an attack a week).
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 18, 2010 14:56:44 GMT 12
Assange looks and acts like one of those megalomaniac James Bond baddies, and I am amazed the CIA or MI6 have not quietly topped him and his colleagues.
I agree with you Craig that his intentions are not at all honourable and he is loving the publicity. These idiots who are following him like he's a cult leader have made serious attacks on some big companies which has harmed a lot of business transactions and I really cannot see that at all as being in the spirit of what he claims his releases are about. he's a bigger bastard than the bastards he is trying to harm.
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Post by strikemaster on Dec 18, 2010 15:21:18 GMT 12
The individual isn't important in this case. What is, is what's bought forward from it. There isn't enough transparency in govt and this just highlights that. From what I can read the writer of that cable is right and confirms what I'd posted earlier. The current (and previous) NZ govt's are failing their first duty.
Ignore whatsisname and get to the facts I say. This kind of thing has no bearing on national security even if it isn't true. Which brings me to my next issue, deliberate leak or misinformation? One way to cause problems for the truth is to claim its a deliberate leak, bring into question its origin.
So the questions are, is it true? What do we (the public) do about it?
The points raised, is the nz govt deliberately failing in its first duty purely to bolster its public funding and gain votes? As a side issue, why does the US make the assumption that the NZ media could be swayed? And are they guilty of doing that on their own soil?
I'd say they are and Asageywotsisname is perfectly justified in revealing the truth (if it is,as Madmac points out) if its being covered up. I don't care what his intentions are but some of these statements are serious enough for me to consider the US, AU and NZ govt's corrupt. Yes Minister anyone?
In saying that there is enough free information without these leaks to convict them anyway. Iraq 2 was based on a lie (even if the invasion was just). Afghanistan is whole other ball game.
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Post by corsair67 on Dec 18, 2010 15:50:26 GMT 12
I think Jon Stewart summed things up nicely recently on the Daily Show. He basically said that none of this stuff will shock or surprise anyone: after all, you are dealing with a country who's government once sold arms to the lunatics in charge of Iran in order to fund an insurgency in Latin America! Everyone already knows the US Govt are bastards! None of this stuff really is a surprise (not to me at least), and does Assange really think any of the material he's published will change anything? The only change I can see happening is that the US Govt (and many others!) will change the way they do things in the future so that a lowly PFC can't copy it and circulate it at their will. Anyway, did someone say "politics" ??  |
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Post by phil on Dec 18, 2010 15:56:04 GMT 12
It is absolutely nothing compared to the PRC's thief of data from the US DOD (I believe its averaging an attack a week). I think you'll find it's about 1000 times that. |
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Post by obiwan27 on Dec 18, 2010 16:53:08 GMT 12
Wikileaks aren't revealing anything we didn't already know about what the US has gotten up to in the past. 'The Pentagon Papers' were much more revealing. The Wikileaks website was originally supposed to be a 'whistleblowers' website and it has transformed into an anti-American mouthpiece, nothing more, nothing less. The video of the US Apache shooting the group of journalists and cameramen was a genuine leak. The fact that Arab nations in the Persian Gulf have been lobbying the US hard to take out Iran is also interesting. Apart from that 'meh'.
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Dec 18, 2010 18:29:35 GMT 12
Personally I think Julian Assange should be strung up for treason, and Wikileaks shut down. I don't — how can he be guilty of treason under US laws when he has never been a US citizen and hasn't set foot in the USA? He's only releasing stuff that is supposedly secret, yet the USA is silly enough to give access to all that “so-called” secret stuff to around three million of their citizens, thereby creating a gigantic sieve, then they whinge when the sieve leaks. Tom Scott summed the situation up perfectly in his cartoon published by The Dominion Post on 2nd December....  |
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Post by haughtney1 on Dec 18, 2010 19:12:20 GMT 12
Personally I think Julian Assange should be strung up for treason, and Wikileaks shut down. I cant say I agree with that comment Dave, although to be fair I think the UK and Sweden are doing their best at the bidding of their US masters...I'm certain pressure has been bought to bear. Whether you agree with Assange and his motivations, he certainly cannot be tried on charges of treason, quite simply because he isn't a US citizen, moreover he has done nothing more than publish details in the same sense that the Washington/New York Post is apt to, as well as large portions of the British media. To me Assange represents a viewpoint that has its place in the wider context of Geopolitics, that being the need for greater transparency and less double dealing behind closed doors. The US administration is pissed off/seething/frothing at the mouth because quite simply he has published info that has confirmed what many of us suspected all along...America currently has a narrow self-centred view on the world, and has little regard for the wider context of anything. As for shutting wikileaks down, I'd bet 2 dollars cold hard cash..that its been tried I should also add that I haven't read anything yet published via wikileaks that I've disagreed with.....the US diplomatic corps is certainly populated with gifted and astute individuals  ;D |
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Post by luke6745 on Dec 18, 2010 20:27:20 GMT 12
If he has released documents about Australia could he be charged with treason there?
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Post by corsair67 on Dec 18, 2010 20:32:57 GMT 12
If he has released documents about Australia could he be charged with treason there? I'm not sure about that, but the head of the AFP said last week that as far as they were concerned he hadn't broken any Australian laws in regards to the items published on his website recently. |
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Dec 18, 2010 22:44:26 GMT 12
We live in the information age.
The days of governments (or large corporations) trying to keep stuff secret are gone.
Even the likes of the Chinese are finding that out to their cost.
If governments want to get up to dodgy stuff, then try to cover it up, you can guarantee someone will unearth what they are trying to hide and blow the whistle on it. And it's even worse if there is hypocrisy involved, such as any particular government trying to claim the high moral ground when secret activities show they have stooped to the same level as many of their enemies.
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Post by chinapilot on Dec 19, 2010 1:27:35 GMT 12
Think a lot of people will agree with you Dave!!
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Post by corsair67 on Dec 19, 2010 8:35:20 GMT 12
"Now you lot listen here: he's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy." ;D
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Post by 14liney on Dec 19, 2010 9:40:48 GMT 12
No surprises here. NZ has been turning her back on her allies for years and seems to have a "head in the sand" attitude towards defense. Lets hope that China or maybe the Indons don't take a hankering towards acquiring some new territory, NZ is a soft target with no real defense force to speak of. The NZG would have to go hat in hand to the US and Oz goverments for help. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 19, 2010 11:28:32 GMT 12
It has obviously been a while since you've been home to NZ, 14liney, China invaded - er sorry, has been "acquiring new territory" - and holds most of Auckland already.
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Post by 14liney on Dec 20, 2010 8:02:42 GMT 12
It has obviously been a while since you've been home to NZ, 14liney, China invaded - er sorry, has been "acquiring new territory" - and holds most of Auckland already. You're right I had noticed that when I was last in Auckland, a nice city by the way. They have also invaded here and have their own shopping malls with Chinese language signs and an unwelcome attitude towards non chinese. |
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