Sun Newspapers Millies

[oggie2620]

RAF Bomber Command (and therefore all our friends from the Commonwealth too) finally recognised at the SUN's Millies.

Thunderous applause ;D erupted as the men of WWII's Bomber Command were finally recognised for their incredible service and sacrifice.

They were airbrushed out of history because of their clinical success in bombing Germany into submission.

Warrant Officer Harry Irons, 86, said: "We were ignored but tonight we have righted a wrong." ;D

www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/3279061/Millies-2010-Stars-salute-our-heroes.html

[Dave Homewood]

Airbrushed out of history?? WTF?

[strikemaster]

They never received any recognition because of the damage that occurred in Dresden, Berlin etc. The civilian casualty count was so high that the gubmit tried very hard to ignore their contribution as tt was embarrassing to them. They did play a big role in the defeat of the Axis nations so its been a long time coming. Good going I say.

[Dave Homewood]

I wholeheartedly dispute the claim that Bomber Command was "airbrushed out of history".

There are thousands of books about the men, the raids, the aircraft, the victims. Many museums pay tribute to the men of Bomber Command including here in NZ, the Air Force Museum of New Zealand and the Museum of Transport and Technologywhich have very good displays on the subject, among others. The Battle of britain Memorial Flight's Lancaster pays tribute to them, as does the Canadian Warplane Heritage Lancaster.

If they were airbrushed from history, none of these things would exist, and we would know nothing about their heroic deeds and their major effort and contribution in WWII.

Yes, a few idiots have tried to revisit history with modern revisionist eyes and rewrite what actually happened. They are the ones that need to be quietly airbrushed out. The men of Bomber Command did nothing wrong and should be rightly proud of their service.

I don't think it is right to say they have never been recognised either. They didn't get a service medal, but millions of people recognise their service and are grateful for it.

[strikemaster]

IIRC there was never any service medal for bomber crew because of the civilian loss they caused. The Gubmit ignored them as an embarrassment. I might be wrong in thinking too, up until recently there were never any memorials (statues etc) for bomber crew either. In fact, there still may not be any. Lancaster's in museums etc aren't really memorials as such.

I wonder if there are any bomber crew dead, names on plaques etc? There may be names, but no dedications to bomber squadrons. Its not a secret, its been published officially before. Its just been ignored.

[Dave Homewood]

There are memorial plaques to bomber squadrons all over Britian. They are mainly at the former bases as that's where the veterans wanted to be rememebred. The bomber crews who did not return are on Cenotaphs across the world and those who have no known graves are remembered at Runnymede Memorial. And the bomber veterans were included under the Europe Star campaign medal rather than having another medal struck. Even Air marshall Harris has a statue in london.

By the way, bomber crews did not "cause" civilian deaths, politicians did, with the blood of those civilains squarely being on the hands of Adolf Hitler. After all it was he who turned his own bombers onto the civilian cities first.

I think the latter day press makes too much out of the fact that either the bomber crews were mass murderers, or on the other hand they are forgotten by everyone and wiped from the history books. Most of the bomber crew members I have talked with hate the way they are handled nowadays by the press, especially the accusations of mudering civilians. Most of the journalists can't even spell Lancaster but they happily jump on bandwagons when there's dirt to dish out.

I would like to hear Peter Wheeler's thoughts on this. He's far more expert inthis than I am and if he thinks I'm wrong in my thoughts I'll happily take notice and change my tune.

[oggie2620]

Please dont shoot the messenger boys... Sorry if I have started something here...

[strikemaster]

I didn't mean they were the root "cause" of Dresden etc, Dave, just the perception. Wrong or right doesn't matter they had a job to do and they did it and I'm just relaying what I had read. At best it'd be fair to say they never got the recognition that fighter command did. In part possibly due to the fact the average Pom couldn't see their handy work.

[Dave Homewood]

Dee, I'm not trying to shoot the messenger, just the message, if you know what I mean.

An award 70 years later from a tabloid newspaper doesn't actually mean they have been forgotten till now, no matter what the tabloid might tell you. I do agree it is good that they have actually been recognised positively by a tabloid however, usually it is them that is accusing the veterans of killing babies, etc.

Strikemaster, yes that's a good point that their work went unseen by most on their own side.

[strikemaster]

There is movement to construct a decent memorial in the UK;

www.rafbombercommand.com/memorialfund/

My googling finds nothing in the UK as far as current memorials go, and only 1 in Holland. The RAFBC will hopefully get something off the ground. Pun intended. :-)

[oggie2620]

You are right Strikemaster which is why its timely to get the Memorial going. Looks like its going ahead now... yes its lack of official recognition that galls. You Anzacs just do it so much better...

[oggie2620]

One good thing that came out of the Millies:
www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/3289284/Bomber-Command-friends-meet-after-68yrs.html

[strikemaster]

We got a little one too, Oggie;

www.airforce.mil.nz/operations/airforce-news/102/bomber-command-memorial.htm

[yak2]

From a RAAF bomber squadron perspective, there are modest memorials in Waddington Village (463 & 467 squadrons) and Binbrook (460 squadron). In addition there is the RAF memorial at Runnymeade. The websites for these squadrons also detail other memorials in (then) occupied Europe, and provide a graphic insite on the bravery and sacrifices made by Bomber Command.

[Dave Homewood]

Strikemaster said:
"There may be names, but no dedications to bomber squadrons."

And Strikemaster said:
"My googling finds nothing in the UK as far as current memorials go."

No. 75 (NZ) Squadron Memorial at RAF Mepal
www.panoramio.com/photo/43184791

No. 75 (NZ) Squadron Memorial at RAF Feltwell
www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1997810

No. 75 (NZ) Squadron Crew Memorial in Auckland
rnzaf.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Wartime&action=print&thread=11138

No. 115 Squadron Bomber Command Memorial at Ely
www.ww2museums.com/article/13841/Memorial-no-115-Squadron-Bomber-Command-RAF.htm

No. 50 Squadron Memorial and No. 61 Squadron Memorial And Musuem at RAF Skellingthorpe
www.raf-lincolnshire.info/50sqn/50sqnmemorial.htm
and
www.lancaster-archive.com/mem_skellingthorpe.htm

In fact there's a list of Lincolshire Bomber Command squadron and station memorials here
www.raf-lincolnshire.info/memorials.htm

So as you'll see there are many memorials already to the various squadrons and stations they served at. Many of those places also have small musuems. There are larger museums dedicated to preserving the history and telling the story of Bomber Command too, such as the musuem at East Kirkby owned by the panton Brothers, where they have a taxiing Lancaster, part of a Wellington and part of a Hampden plaus lots of other artifacts and a flyable Spitfire based there. There's also the Yorkshire Air Museum with the Handley Page Halifax at Elvington. And the RAF Museum, Hendon. And the imperial War Museum in London, and the IWm at Duxford. And the Heritage Centre in Lincolnshire where the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight is based. The list of museums and memorials could go on and on.

Also a new memorial is underway at Woodhall Spa to remember No. 617 Squadron.

I am not trying to be confrontational nor controversial here, I am just trying to say that with all the books, memorials, flying and static preserved aircraft, museums, documentaries, feature films, websites and all the other array of information that is avaialable about Bomber Command, they have not been 'airbrushed out of history' as the claim was made. Far from it. the claim could almost be made by Transport Command, Coastal Command, the Fleet Air Arm and the flyers who fought in the North African Desert, Middle East and India-Burma area, but I do not believe that the claim fits Bomber Command.

Having made this point I still think it is brilliant that a national memorial is being created, even if it's not a particularly good design in my opinion. I also think it is good that a British newspaper is treating the veterans so well and acknowledging them as heroes, as it's a far cry from how the press has treated them sometimes in the past.

New Zealand's Bomber Command Memorial in the Auckland War Mememorial Museum is a very striking and moving memorial to visit. I was most impressed.

[chinapilot]

They were airbrushed out of history

Quite...while there are many individual memorials throughout the UK and thousands of books written, the men of Bomber Command have never had a 'Campaign Medal', Harris was left unrecognised and many crew especially in the more 'enlighten times' beginning with the '60s were vilified.

During the last few years the 'Land Girls' & the ATA have all received 'their' medals but still no Bomber Command one and no memorial [Dave - we are talking 'Memorial' as in something in a permanent place in say Central London, not obscure, mostly privately funded ones at individual air bases]

The 'Sun',while not considered the most prestigious paper does these awards every year which are televised and a big hurrah for them. Not only do they recognize past deeds they also honour present servicemen/women which the mainstream papers only play lip service to.

[oggie2620]

I have to say that apart from the one for Bomber one the one that brought tears to my eyes was the overcoming obstacles one... That lad thoroughly deserved recognition though they all do each and every one of them!

[pjw4118]

There are many low key memorials to RAF Bomber Command all over Britain and significant ones in Commonwealth countries, Canada, Canberra and Auckland. A bronze of Harris was unveiled by the Queen Mother. There are also many RAF BC displays including Perth ( with a Lanc) and the PFF section at the Queensland Air Museum in Colundra. Also Wigram has a display and dont forget MOTAT 2. So generally BC gets fair coverage.
Regarding a special medal this does raise the hackles of the boys, not especially that they need another , as all recieved the Aircrew Europe Star , some with the 1943 clasp, but their crewmates and leaders were overlooked. Many do wear the unofficial BC medal to show that the are part of the "club".
Harris is not alone in being left out once the job was done, our own Sir K Park was one and Coningham another. I am sure that there are others who were caught out as politics and loyalties were shuffled.
Regarding Dresden and Harris and the attempted re writing of history I need to get a few facts and sources out to show that it was all a PLOT.
Just bear in mind that Germany started it but we won ,there was not an alternative .

[pjw4118]

Bomber Command Medal and Harris.
Dresden

There is no simple answer to Daves question which has been asked repeatedly and increasingly over the past decade. It is complicated by military, political and personal rivalries. So I will cover a bit at a time. First the Dresden raid. There were those opposed to area or carpet bombing but unfortunately the Dresden raid has become a catch phrase for all air warfare and its casualties. But the facts on the raid are readily available.

For the aircrew who flew on night raids for over five years Dresden was just another good prang but they are now baffled and hurt that their efforts and sacrifice are now considered unworthy. There were Labour Party members in the wartime Parliament who raised the validity of area bombing but postwar “the least noise about the bombing was made by the Germans themselves”

Regarding the Dresden raid, Churchill memoed the Secretary for State (Air) on 26 January 1945 questioning why ‘Thunderclap’ hadn’t proceeded against Berlin, Dresden, Chemnitz and Leipsig (who were all facing Russian occupation). Days later at the Yalta conference Stalin asked twice for Dresden to be bombed. In Britain, Labours Atlee (as head of Government with Churchill away) did as he was told and authorised it.

The five raids progressed over four days and then again two weeks later, the USAAF 8th Airforce carrying out four of them.

Feb 13 Day USAAF 400 a/c , Turned back/bad weather
Night RAF 769 a/c, 2690 t
14 Day USAAF 311 a/c, 711t
15 Day USAAF 211 a/c, 400t ?
March 2 Day USAAF 406 a/c, 820t ?

‘The USAAF daylight raids saw the accompanying P51 escorts continue to strate the streets and any transport once the 8th Air Force had left the area usual practice after a raid’
One surprising fact is the high USA participation in the attack, dropping almost the same tonnage as the RAF. Dresden received over 4000t of bombs. By comparison Hamburg got 16000t and Berlin 49000t. Dresdens casualty estimates by the Nazis were 200,000, the Allies thought 35000 but just last year in response to NYD (Nazi) members gaining seats in the Dresden/Saxon parliament the German government ordered an investigation of archives and determined that 18000 had been killed.

During February 1945 the RAF had dropped 46000 tonnes then 67000 tonnes in March which was almost equalled by the USAAFS 66000t. A change then came over Churchill who on 26 March issued a memo querying the need for continued bombing.

Some historians believe Churchill had many concerns about the Soviets Postwar intentions and wanted massive raids in early 1945 to demonstrate the destructive power of Bomber Command, a force that the small Soviet night fighter arm would be unable to combat. A further show of day time air power was made on April 18 when the island of Heliogland was obliterated by a 1000 bombers delivering 4900t.

With the change of Government in the 1945 election, Labours Atlee rolled over to approve the nuclear attacks on Japan. His BBC address announcing the bombing started with “I am proud.... “
So it was apparent that killing Asians in vast numbers was still ok to a Labour government.

While the Dresden raids were not the most fierce, costly, or destructive, it was the strategic use of general area bombing that was being questioned.

Decades later when the Dresden raid became a fixation for historians who were anti Bomber Command, Joe Williams ( a R/G on 625 Squadron) who flew on the Dresden raid did a study of the critics. He was concerned that the facts were being lost to principles that didn’t apply in the 1940’s. He found that none had any direct experience of the war all being unborn or young children at the time. ‘The critics found the aircrew now old and reduced in numbers an easy target for uniformed debate and grandstanding’

With the increase of neo nazi influence in Dresden and the Saxony state since reunification their politicians have become very loud with their protests against the ‘Terror Hiers’ and ‘Airpirates’ of the RAF. The Mayor of Dresden Helma Orsz (an ex East German agent) and NYD (Nazi) spokesman Klans Wohler last year accused Britain of War Crimes Joe Willaims again ‘What would it have been like if those bastards had won.’ Note that the two Dresdeners make no reference to the USAAF participation in the bombing.

I have used a number of Sources for the facts about Dresden as NZBCA is often asked for comment. Used are Midellbrooks – The Nuremberg Raid, Sawards-Bomber Harris, Longmates The Bombers, Neilands The Bomber War and Websters Vol. IV, Strategic Air Offensive, all respected sources, and the best I can do.

Is that the end of it? – I don’t think so.



F/O Edmond Ware in 75 Squadron AA-K records the raid against Dresden and a tickle up by a Me109

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks very much for your comments Peter, it is really appreciated.