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Post by obiwan27 on Apr 10, 2011 13:36:42 GMT 12
Great stuff from when NZ Governments gave a sh*t about Defence and the RNZAF in particular.
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Post by Officer Crabtree on Apr 10, 2011 16:59:39 GMT 12
There is a good video 'A4 Skyhawk Tribute'
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Post by obiwan27 on Apr 10, 2011 17:31:56 GMT 12
Watch the second video closely and at around 5:34 in we are treated to the 'roll under break' being executed, unless I'm mistaken.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 10, 2011 18:12:14 GMT 12
Probably, they flew that up till 1989 when the team had a crash.
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E.T.
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 78
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Post by E.T. on Apr 13, 2011 19:38:04 GMT 12
Watch the second video closely and at around 5:34 in we are treated to the 'roll under break' being executed, unless I'm mistaken. Looks like it indeed. And all the gang were there (except me I was having to do Sgts Qual Cse at the time :-( ) - Deadly Des riding brakes as they towed it out, Smitty doing the despatch, Wah reprogramming the NAS, Bosh on the startup GTC - ahhh, the good old days! The Smiths Industries guys too - Herm F, Jim IIRC & can't remember the bearded guy - Frank maybe? Only the RNZAF could let their cheif test-pilot's password be shown on national TV too! And a real blast from the past in video one - at 2:17 there's a shot of all the "old" Avionic boxes that came out of the jets for the update. The round blue/green domed one in the middle of the line-up is the APG53 nose radar - my first "real" job! Ahh... |
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Post by skyhawkdon on Apr 13, 2011 20:43:21 GMT 12
All those pre-Kahu avionics boxes sat around in a container at Ohakea for years afterwards as they tried to sell it without success. Then one day around 1995 we got word that it was all going to be smashed up and dumped. We were given 2 hours to retrieve anything we wanted for the Ohakea Museum and the school at Woodbourne and then it was literally smashed up with a sledge hammer and dumped! I managed to retrieve quite a bit of stuff for the museum but would have grabbed a lot more if we had more time. The amount of stuff that got dumped was criminal. As we went through the container we found more and more stuff that wasn't just pre-Kahu, but it was still used in the post Kahu jet as well! It was all marked "A-4G" and some idiot had assumed that since our aircraft were A-4Ks it wasn't any use to us! The nose and radome now on NZ6257 at Ohakea came out of that container - it was brand new! The Supply officer in charge wouldn't listen - it was all surplus and was going to be dumped - and it was! The next day they lined up all the instruments and avionics boxes on the grass and smashed them up with sledge hammers. The doppler antenna had mercury leveling switches in it and the young suppliers who were given the job of smashing everything up didn't know any better... Wah was walking past and saw what they were about to do and managed to stop them before they spread mercury everywhere! I suspect in the coming months the Kahu avionics will suffer a similar fate at the hands of young airmen and woman who know no different.  I hope there is someone involved who has the foresight to save a few bits and pieces from Kahu for future generations to marvel over. Project Kahu was an amazingly successful example of Kiwi "can do" and was cutting edge technolgy for its day. It should be held up high and proud as an example to all New Zealanders of what can be acheived in this country. Another interesting piece of useless technical information is the MDGT computers used for mission planning as shown in the second video. They were the very first "286" computers to come into NZ. They cost around $15,000 each in 1988 which was a lot of money back then. The processor chip serial numbers in them were very early ones (how did we know that you might ask - because we are Kiwis and we just had to pull them apart to see how they worked ;D) Those 286 computers were still in use in Avionics Ohakea in 2001 when everything was scrapped, being used as 1553 databus controllers for testing the Kahu avionics. The Supply system wouldn't let us get rid of them because they were still worth too much money according to the fixed asset register. Someone should save one of those for the Air Force Museum! |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 13, 2011 21:59:20 GMT 12
Actually in reading what you say about Kahu being an amazing example of Kiwi Can-Do technology, I really hope our National Museum in Wellington (Te Papa) will be clever enough to get an example of the Skyhawk. it's a kiwi icon and should be there with as much right as the Topdressing Tiger Moth and corrugated iron Holden.
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Post by baz62 on Apr 15, 2011 14:46:43 GMT 12
I was chatting to our AutoCad designer at work and as he's ex RNZAF (Avionics on 14 Squadron, one Hamish "Mush" MacKenzie) I mentioned this thread. His father in law was on the Kahu project, Geoff Chisholm (think its spelt correctly).
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Post by strikemaster on Apr 15, 2011 16:43:41 GMT 12
One of my "other" hobbies is classic (I'm showing my age now) computers. You are bang on, Skyhawkdon. Just because its old doesn't make it any less interesting. No less than an Altair 8800 or the like. They all have a place in history. I'm not sure if pulling stuff apart is just a Kiwi trait, I did start at a very young age but I'm not convinced its because I'm a Kiwi.  Its just cool to find out how stuff works, till you let the smoke out. |
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E.T.
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 78
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Post by E.T. on Apr 15, 2011 19:24:04 GMT 12
I was chatting to our AutoCad designer at work and as he's ex RNZAF (Avionics on 14 Squadron, one Hamish "Mush" MacKenzie) I mentioned this thread. His father in law was on the Kahu project, Geoff Chisholm (think its spelt correctly). Geoff of-the-large-mustache-and-wife-who-made-amazing-curries Chisolm perchance?? The man responsible for me believing my little mini was too wide to fit on the Bulls bridge after "stacking firewood" at his MQ one Wed "Sports Afternoon"?? I didn't think he was on Kahu but could be wrong. DOn, on the MDGT PC's being the first PC's the RNZAF owned I was going to suggest otherwise but then re-thought my timelines! I was going to suggest the PC's we had for the microP course was around the same time but no they would have been a few years later. I do recall everyone proclaiming the extravagence of the purchase though as they each had 20M HDD and who on earth would ever fill that up?!! |
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Post by chewy on Apr 15, 2011 20:10:55 GMT 12
Hey i bought an NEC8086 off the RNZAF for 10 dollars at Ohakea to raise money for the museum. One of the first PCs we had at Ohakea was a Sanyo 2000, what ever that was. It had a plotter that went with it, that would not work on anything else.
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Post by raymond on Apr 15, 2011 20:15:35 GMT 12
They had a Sanyo 2000 at 2 TTS in the test bank which calculated the test results given the question dificulty factor, it also determined if a question needed reviewing....I recall the first computer they used was built by Stiggy, didnt really get to see it.
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Post by chewy on Apr 15, 2011 20:26:51 GMT 12
I remember talking to one of the americans about the over heating problems in the nose. He said the model they created in the states had no such problems. I asked him if he had brought the model with him. He said no as it was a computer model. Some times you can't simulate everything useing a computer model, you have to build the real thing. I don't know if they ever fixed the problem on the Kahu jets.
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Post by oj on Apr 16, 2011 20:51:00 GMT 12
For what it's worth, I can tell you that at the beginning of the Project Kahu contractor selection, Lockheed (who owned 25% of PAC at the time) were a prime bidder for the work, but lost out to Lear-Siegler (who were then purchased by Smiths Industries).
The Lockheed bid recognised the substantial cooling requirements that would be necessary in the nose and their design accommodated that.
Later, when the Lear-Siegler design was known, Lockheed predicted (at least to PAC staff) that there would likely be overheat problems in the nose cone, in fact they expressed amazement at the big difference in their cooling proposals versus that of Lear-Siegler..
It begs the question: Why was this not detected during the "hot-mockup" build at Cedar Rapids? Was the hot mockup just a wiring frame with no attempt to simulate operational environmental conditions?
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Post by harvard1041 on Apr 16, 2011 22:04:49 GMT 12
Interesting stuff - and brings back a few memories.
Was Flt Cmdr AMDF at ARS during KAHU.... and there were a lot of compromises which we had to make - pretty normal during the Design process.
There were some neat solutions found in some areas - and some - to be honest - areas where better solutions should have been found. Cooling and CofG being two areas where, in my opinion, better solutions should have been found...
Putting humps on all the a/c ( T-Birds included ) and putting many of the heavier boxes in there was a pretty good option I thought - there was way too much 'stuff' forced into the nose - radar and some 'need to get to' boxes should have been in the nose - other boxes in the hump - which after all was designed specifically for avionics boxes. The range of boxes the USN installed in the hump was pretty neat. There were also options of installing a (very) small Air Cycle Machine (ACM) which ran on bleed air - both on the ground and in flight - decent cold air for the avionics boxes ( and the pilot on the ground to be honest ) would have been a good thing I think.
... but then most design is a compromise - and for the money and Schedule - I think Lear-Seigler / RNZAF did a pretty good job... the 'real' credit for making it work well however - belongs to the great guys on 2 / 75 Sqn and the backup guys in Avionics Sqn etc.
Real shame that the skill built up during the Project wasn't retained & expanded ... I suspect we wouldn't be having the 'troubles' with the C-130 / P-3 Projects if the team & expertise had been kept together.
Have been involved in a couple of other upgrade Projects in the 20+ years since, it's a real shame that this Design / Upgrade capability hasn't been retained in NZ - as I think Kiwis generally are pretty good at it ...
rgds
Hvd1041
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Post by Calum on Apr 18, 2011 12:26:50 GMT 12
The biggest problem with something like this these days are airworthiness regulations we have to work within today. And dealing with people who insist on applying the full complex process to even a simple design change. (I’m having this issue at the moment) .
Part of my job for the past 10 years has been developing minor design changes for RAN helicopters. I doubt something like Kahu could be done in the same timeframe today (IIRC the NZDF has pretty much adopted the ADF airworthiness system) .
For example it took me 2 years from to get a new commercial of the shelf ATC transponder in the AS350BA using the ADF design change process. The entire Kahu process took about 5-6 yrs IIRC and was truly amazing for what it achieved in such a short timeframe
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Post by harvard1041 on Apr 18, 2011 22:19:19 GMT 12
Hi Calum
Not sure KAHU really ever was 'amazing' - the rose tinted shades are great things... but it was a good solid design with lots of hard work etc put in - and the result worked well. The core design team was never more than about 20 people - with about twice that number contributing good ideas and innovations. The Schedule slipped about 1 year I seem to recall but budget was met.
In my opinion the ADF burecratic system ( as adopted by NZ as you say ) really has very little to do with good design practice - and more to do with the theoretical / burecratic objectives... Much of what they are trying to achieve is covered by good Design Practice anyway. The secret - in my humble opinion - is to have an on-going design team at work - small and big Projects - and the freedom to design.
The ADF system does I think almost snagnate many Projects - with no one person able or willing to make a decision - any decision.
I'd point to some spectacular failures - the SH2G(A) being one I do know a bit about - the RNZAF P-3 may be another ( Schedule wise at least - the prototype has been in the US - what - 6 years ! ).
Small experienced Design Teams are always going to produce better results in my opinion.
Rant over
Rgds
Hvd1041
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Post by Calum on Apr 19, 2011 14:54:04 GMT 12
Hi Calum Not sure KAHU really ever was 'amazing' - the rose tinted shades are great things... but it was a good solid design with lots of hard work etc put in - and the result worked well. The core design team was never more than about 20 people - with about twice that number contributing good ideas and innovations. The Schedule slipped about 1 year I seem to recall but budget was met. Hvd1041 When you view it n the context of what people are trying to do today with various avionics upgrades I reckon it’s pretty amazing. That they got most of it to work reasonable well is still impressive. I don’t think defence (NZDF and ADF) are able to develop and maintain small experienced design teams these days. Industry can as long as they are supplied with enough work/opportunities. That is an issue here at the moment, although thankfully not for my employer. |
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Post by oj on Apr 19, 2011 20:48:36 GMT 12
"Real shame that the skill built up during the Project wasn't retained & expanded ... I suspect we wouldn't be having the 'troubles' with the C-130 / P-3 Projects if the team & expertise had been kept together. "
1041, we did our best to retain the project Kahu electrical skills at PAC after 1989:
1. 14 Jindiviks built for the RAF or UK DOD were 50% airframe-built at PAC and 100% of the avionics looms, panels and boxes were produced at PAC.
2. Self-contained control modules of various configurations were built at PAC for the ANZAC Frigate programme for the entire fleet (not just the two NZ ships). 100% of the wiring done at PAC.
3. Macarthur Electrical in Hamilton won the contract to produced all the main electrical switch-boards for the full ANZAC Frigate fleet. Ex-Kahu staff were initially hired to Macarthur Electrical as temporary skilled labour (valuable out-sourcing) for several months and several transferred to Macarthur as permanent staff after that.
4. PAC actively tried to get more work on the Orion's Rigel 2 and 3 upgrades but were handicapped by the company being placed on the market by ASTA (the 75% owner) and we went through a period of some instability. We also tried to get other off-shore military wiring contracts and came very close to a couple but no cigar.
The new owners of PAC (Aeromotive) declared several Technical Departmental Managers redundant so we were flicked-off and much of the knowledge went out the window with us. They (Aeromotive) apperaed to lose all interest in external military contract work in favour of further development of the CT4 and Cresco. This they did very well, and I praise them for it.
The project Kahu electrical team therefore gradually evaporated from PAC and found themselves in other Hamilton businesses, who benefited from the experience.
there is more to be said here, but you will have to drag it out of me!
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Its just cool to find out how stuff works, till you let the smoke out.
