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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 21, 2011 15:47:42 GMT 12
As they never gave me a copy of the contact I cannot comment, but an offer of service - if the other party agrees to it - is surely a contract, legally binding? I signed up before the days when they were trying to get rid of staff left right and centre. In my days they were taking in 120 people per recruit course and had four intakes per year, just for ground staff, with around four a year for officers too. There was no real threat of downsizing till about 1991 and I do not recall a clause in my contract that said they could lay me off at any time. It was pretty difficult till 1993 to quit at your own request too, as you were therefore breaching your part of the contract and had to give a full year's notice for your decision to leave the Air Force. In about July 1993 they dropped this down to one month's notice as they were trying to shed staff as they'd closed down Te Rapa, Shelly Bay and were closing flying at Wigram.
I'd like to relook at my contract which I signed on the 10th of January 1989 and see again what was actually in it.
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Post by skyhawkdon on Jun 21, 2011 17:16:07 GMT 12
You can probably request a copy of your personal file Dave through the NZDF. I remember having a look through mine before I got out in 2001 and its started with the original recuiting forms I filled out before I joined!
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Post by jonesy on Jun 21, 2011 18:33:17 GMT 12
I think nige has hit the nail on the head here-the RNZAF is/was a lifestyle choice, and a great degree of pride in your trade, be it pilot/techy/or support. Now with these civilionised trades youre JUST a gov't employee. Huge difference there. Word I've heard is moralle is pretty poor now, with these guys not certain if theyre gonna even have a job soon? WTF?? Note to recruiters: good luck filling those roles with good crew- I was at an careers expo not long ago and had a listen to the F/sgt recruiter guy saying how great the RNZAF was for a career choice. I had a yarn with him after the kids had gone, and he said he felt like a hypocrite especially as he'd had enough and was looking for another job! You guys in aussie-is the grass really greener over the fence, or is that worthy of another thread?
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Post by Deane B on Jun 21, 2011 20:04:12 GMT 12
As they never gave me a copy of the contact I cannot comment, but an offer of service - if the other party agrees to it - is surely a contract, legally binding? Yes in the good old days we signed a 20 year contract, however there is a provision in DFO's which allows your service to be terminated - i'm not sure of the exact details, but its called "DJ2" and its the rule that was invoked when they had a bit of a sort out post disbandment of the combat force. The RNZAF did look after the handful of people who were released under that provision. Those close to the 20 year mark were also able to buy back the last few years of their superannuation to enable them to get the full payout as well.
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Post by lesterpk on Jun 21, 2011 22:13:02 GMT 12
The RNZAF is simply doing what its told to by the government. There is no more money around, Chch has taken care of $7-8 billion for the next 5 years or so to rebuild. The NZDF have been told/directed to save money and like all good militaries are doing as ordered by their masters. If I hung around next year and was made redundant I would have an extra $50K or so to walk away with, but I have the decision to go now as I have an opportunity in front of me. The NZDF is doing what it can to lessen the impact on people but its hands are tied by its political masters.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 21, 2011 22:36:02 GMT 12
Very true Les. It's a sad fact but the consecutive governments since aound 1991 have been continuously turning the screws on the RNZAF, squeezing and squeezing it to breaking point.
Jonesy, you point about the recruiter is interesting. No doubt soon recruiters will be a thing of the past as well, all they'll need to do is advertise the various civilian positions in the newspapers. And I believe most recruiting is done via the internet now too, not face to face. Lots of recruiting offices of the past are history now.
Somethign I rememebr from the Recruit Course training was they taught us something that set the RNZAF apart markedly from any civil job was that thing they called the Esprit de Corps. I think perhaps this great value of the service has been lost sight of by all accounts.
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Post by Chris F on Jun 22, 2011 12:45:02 GMT 12
Dave after reading this thread and reading the comments that you ex servicemen make on here makes me very sad at the current state of what is happening. There seems to be great comradeship that lingers well past your service life and that counts towards alot. Even in the wake of the Christchurch earth quake the effort of the entire NZDF cannot be measured in terms of dollars and cents for there effort could never be repayed in any form of words for there work in Christchurch. I strongly beleive the public of New Zealand respect and understand the need for a Defence Force. The problem is with the political leaders we entrust now and in the future.
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Post by Calum on Jun 22, 2011 15:21:24 GMT 12
You guys in aussie-is the grass really greener over the fence, or is that worthy of another thread? I've said this here before. When I was joining up in 1986 if I knew the differences in conditions of service/pay between the ADF and NZDF, I would have certainly have seriously considered the ADF. For example as a new Cpl in 1991 I was on around $29 K NZD, my girlfriend (who is now my wife) was same trade/ same rank (LS Avionics) was on just over $40K AUD. Plus she has free lifetime healthcare for all injuries/conditions developed as part of her service. The only issue is all the Australians, but I’ve found they aren’t that bad once they’ve been trained ;D
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Post by strikemaster on Jun 22, 2011 16:30:18 GMT 12
Yeah, but its a slow process, Calum. You have to marry them first.
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Post by skyhawkdon on Jun 23, 2011 22:00:59 GMT 12
As one who went through this 10 years ago ("DJ2") I send my deepest sympathies to everyone in the NZDF at this sad and stressful time. At least some of you will be offered civilian jobs which wasn't the case in 2001. Your skills and experience are highly valued out there in civie street and if you want to head overseas so are your military skills. Kia Kaha What Mr Mapp is really saying for those left in uniform is "more work out of less people" This is very bad for the NZDF in the long term IMHO. www.stuff.co.nz/national/5182350/Hundreds-of-military-staff-face-redundancyHundreds of military staff face redundancy 12:05 23/06/2011 Nearly 200 uniformed military staff face redundancy next week as part of Government plan to save costs. Defence Minister Wayne Mapp said 324 jobs now done by uniformed staff would be advertised next Thursday as civilian positions. These jobs are now done by 512 military personnel and those who miss out will be made redundant. A similar round of job cuts is expected to follow later this year. It was most likely to affect people towards the end of their military careers and morale was being hit, said Mapp. ''People are very concerned and that is understandable....uncertainty does concern people.'' As well as saving money - civilians miss out on allowances paid to servicemen and women - there were efficiency gains. ''Essentially we get more work out of fewer people'' because they were not liable to be called on to do all sorts of other military tasks, said Mapp, after appearing before Parliament's foreign affairs and defence select committee today.
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Post by jonesy on Jun 23, 2011 22:25:51 GMT 12
Interesting to hear a comment from the CDF that there would be a "slight dip in moralle". Gotta be one of the best understatements I've heard in some time. These guys have just been crapped on from a decent height. Be interested to see the breakdown of redundancies by trade/rank? My opinion? Servicemen dont deserve this treatment (again) and this country cannot afford to lose skilled and loyal workers.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 23, 2011 23:24:35 GMT 12
I guess if we look back at the Air Force's history it has had its ups and downs over the decades. From a promising start as the NZPAF in 1923 with all those aircraft sent from Britain, not much actually happened - successive governments ignored funding it, and most New Zealanders in the Air Force were overseas in the RAF. Most of the aircraft were loaned out to civilians just so they didn't rot away.
Even when it was renamed the RNZAF in 1934 it was hardly a force to be reckoned with. then there was a sudden upswing in recruting from 1936 and a great build up of capability and staff strength from 1937, which was aided hugely by the war in 1939. This was all due to one great man, Sir Ralph Cochrane, who's genius plan to create a viable large Air Force and yet keep it affordable is perhaps unique.
After the War there was the first big downturn, with the RNZAF wound down from a massive wartime organisation to become the tiny Interum Air Force, as it was dubbed, pretty much ineffectual and underfunded again. At that time many hundreds of people who'd hoped to stay in the RNZAF as a career were made redundant without choice.
Then came another build up in the 1950's with the jet age. Amazingly a huge number of Married Quarter houses at Ohakea and Wigram were actually built at this time, not the war, because of the increase in serving personnel. This lead into the 1960's and was another golden age.
Then came the 1970's with the oil crisis and all the cutbacks again.
the 1980's seemed like a new era of hope, and then the big cuts, the deep cuts began in the 1990's with the loss of core bases and capabilities. The cutting of personnel doesn't seem to have waned since then, the Air Force has been deskilled, demilitarised and cut to the bone. Yet they get as many challenges thrown at them still as they did in the halcion days of the 1960's and 1980's. They are still expected to perform their duties with less money, less people, less flying hours, less of a support system and less and less public support and sympathy. None of this is the fault of the airmen and airwomen, who from the lowliest ranks right to the top still do their best with what they are given but their efforts can only be dictated by the Government's Treasury, which is always subject to the meddling of politicians who decide to experiment with the country's wealth with mad schemes like Rogernomics, or who simply decide they know best and create a nanny state that dictates that the Air Force is a bad thing and must be amputated from the state funding. A major problem now is none of the key politicians have served in the Armed Forces full time, none have any real clue of the importance of the RNZAF, and the sacrifices and and dedication that these men and women give to their nation on a daily basis. Gone are the days when Defence Ministers and Prime Ministers served in the military themselves. We now have more politicians who actively, publicly protested the military than who have ever served a day in uniform for their country.
I therefore find it difficult to see a way that the RNZAF can rise again from the doldrums as it did in the late 1930's, the 1950's and the 1980's. Perhaps it's possible but sadly NZ is far too far behind the rest of the world with its hardware technology. And how can you have a crack, efficient military force run by civilians? It is an oxy-moron. It is little more than a coast guard, a rescue helicopter service, a freight company contracted to the Army and the Police.
The RNZAF has waxed and waned over the decades but there now looks to be no longer any light at the end of this darkening tunnel to see if restored again to an entity that the entire nation cares about and is proud of, as they seemed to be when I was in. So many kids used to wanrt to join the RNZAF but now it's hardly considered a career option.
When I joined there were 120 young men and women on my recruit course, the first of four courses that year each of a similar size - but during the preliminary tests prior to getting in and beginning that course at Woodbourne there must have been over 80 just from the Waikato taking the test and all hoping for a spot, and less than 20 of us passed muster. Back then there were lots of recruiting offices around NZ all with 80 or 100 prospective young folk taking those tests and hoping for that great career they'd heard about in the RNZAF - it used to be a highly desirable career option.
Of course then you could join as a chef and be trained by world class chefs who regularly won national and international competitions; you could join as a typist or a telephone operator; or a driver with a career far more invigorating than driving buses, trucks or taxis in the civilian world; you could become an Admin clerk or Accounts wallah and learn the skills that would set you up for any job in any business in future life; you could be a fireman, an RNZAF policeman, a General Service Instructor; or if you were mechanically inclined you could be an Aircraft Technician, Armament Technician, Avionics Technician, Machinist, Safety and Surface worker, Metal Worker, or a Planewright. You could join as a Padre, or a Doctor, or an Education officer. Or if you were that extra bit special you could be a pilot, a navigator, a flight engineer, an Air Electronics Operator, or you could work your way up from a ground trade to being a Helicopter Crewman or Flight Steward.
What options are there now for the kids starting out? Nowhere near as many as these, and the thought of working on such outdated technology for a lot less money than they'd get at an airport or in a civilian business, why would they bother. Especially when there is such lack of security for the very job they are applying for? All that extra hard work going through a recruit course and trade training to become a member of the RNZAF, a member of that elite band that once was great and whose light is fading fast and nearly burned out... not a lot of point really. Their job might be dissolved in two years time and as the younger, less experienced ones they'll be expected to bugger off when the NCO's get the civilianised job.
The more I think about my recruting time the more I remember how exciting and inigorating it was, all the new experiences that the job promised at home and overseas. And I rememebr how much respect I got from shopkeepers, or taxi drivers, or extended family or whoever when I mentioned I was in the RNZAF. Nowadays a lot of the time when I say I used to be in the Air Force people laugh and say "Do we have an Air Force?"
I guess the entire Air Force experience now is different for a young fellow than it was in my days and if they read what I think they'd probably think I was some silly, sentimental old fool who is disrespectful to them for saying they don't know what they are missing. No dount they still enjoy their job, they still have fun, they still like the lifestyle. But I wonder if they really realise what the service was once like. I somehow doubt that in 20 or 30 years time they will be looking down on a new younger generation and saying how much better things were in their days, because I doubt that RNZAF will have that new generation. The tunnel grows darker and darker, towards the deepest dark...
I guess I prefer nowadays to spend my time looking back at when it was at its greatest, 1939-1945. Now, there was an Air Force, something we are all extremely proud of, and something that can never be surpassed. Glory days.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 23, 2011 23:27:13 GMT 12
Jonesie, the "slight dip in morale" is probably a pothole in the rock-bottom.
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Post by strikemaster on Jun 24, 2011 1:40:36 GMT 12
I left NZ in 1988, before that all I wanted to do was join the RNZAF, after the last 20 years I'm glad I didn't.
We no longer have an effective Air Force, and the rest of the military is in similar boats. NZ is only going to grow and the first order of Govt is in defence. Nats and Labour have both proven to be happier buying welfare votes and tying things up in red tape than letting industry get on with it, which is the core of that growth. Whilst I get POed with the lefty Aussie govt I have to be realistic. What Lab/Nat are doing is not going to help NZ get out of the poo and while it is there, there will be no effort to keep the military afloat. I wish there was more to come back too than just my hunting. But in all honesty I can not see the country being any better off than the Air Force.
In hindsight ANZUS may have been a burden but it kept the yanks interested. Investing in NZ. I hope we never have growth like the 1940's again, Dave. But I feel you are bang on. Our darkest hour? The Skyhawks and Strikemasters were a huge part of my childhood and I always looked up in awe of the lads in the blue.
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Post by Chris F on Jun 24, 2011 10:05:52 GMT 12
Dave the general public do understand and care about our entire Defense Force and it's future. The work they have done in Christchurch is testamount to their worth of all New Zealanders. I am truely ashamed at the way the political masters treat the NZDF and it is hard to see any future for them apart from an all in one coast guard service. As for the kids of today they either want to be professional sportspeople earning the big dosh or stay at home playing playstation while their parents support them. It really is a sad nana state!
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Post by jonesy on Jun 24, 2011 10:37:38 GMT 12
There is a solution....close and sell off all bases (bar one-Devonport) Buy a good sized aircraft carrier that could house around 5000 crew (sure the U.S.sould lend one for a while...) Theres your offshore patrol, strike wing,rotary wing, ready reaction force, pacific disater relief and countless other roles! And when its not steaming around the country its plugged into the mains and the nuclear power will boost the national grid! Any takers??
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Post by Calum on Jun 24, 2011 11:09:31 GMT 12
Yeah, but its a slow process, Calum. You have to marry them first. not all of them
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Post by Tony on Jun 24, 2011 11:29:23 GMT 12
My 20 years was between 1973 - 1993 with fifteen of those spent at Ohakea before being "put out to grass", spending my last 5 years at Auckland. 2 of those were at Hobby - what a great place ;D ;D
It didn't take a crystall ball even back then to see what was going to happen to the services.
Even then there were strong rumours that Strike Wing would be gone within 10 years!
I feel for the staff facing the axe. Joined in good faith with the expectation of serving their country proudly only to see their political master turn on them. While their pollitical masters continue to pay out 50+ millions in "bonus payments" to the elite in the "public service". "The people being made redundant tended to be towards the ends of their careers, Dr Mapp said." You can bet that Mapp will retire on full benefits and pension + perks + all that he can screw out of the system + all that he can screw out of our wallets! But there will be no blood on his hands!
"Lt Gen Jones said it was an "unpleasant thing to do" so the process had to be done with as much respect as possible." "But we're also focussing on the positives for the Defence Force."
What - a letter and maybe an intereview by a superior is respect? Yeah right!
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Post by Chris F on Jun 24, 2011 12:19:39 GMT 12
I would like to know what postives for the Defense Force Lt Gen Jones in focussing on. Are we getting new camels for our troops?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 24, 2011 15:23:23 GMT 12
Positives will be there will be more carparks on base.
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