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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 29, 2011 18:12:55 GMT 12
I think one of the worst things when the military does this sort of thing is the individuals who are affected are bound by military law to not speak out against it, not talk the the media and have to take it on the chin or up or leave without a word. Even after they leave they are still bound by military law for two years.
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Post by skyhawkdon on Jun 29, 2011 20:55:23 GMT 12
Watching the lead stories on the news tonight I had a bad feeling of de ja vu.
Item 1. The dangers our servicemen and woman face every day has again been brought home in Afghanistan with some of our SAS soldiers injured whilest carrying out their duty.
Item 2. If we want a free trade agreement with India then Defence cooperation has to be part of the deal (and who said there was no link between the two!). I'm not sure we have anything left worth contributing, but there you go!
Item 3. NZDF to lay of hundreds of staff over the next year...
Takes me back to DJ2 day in October 2001 - the day several hundred of us were given our DCM letters. We were the lead story on the news that night too. The next item was all about the start of Gulf War II! The irony wasn't lost on me then either!
The PR spin Drs are trying to put their usual positive spin on this but I think it is a PR and morale disaster for the NZDF.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 29, 2011 21:09:10 GMT 12
That thought crossed my mind too Don.
Does having defence links with India make us a target for Pakistan?
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Post by jonesy on Jun 29, 2011 21:11:28 GMT 12
Only the dairys Dave, and they'll be better defended than the rest of us
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Post by 30sqnatc on Jun 29, 2011 23:36:26 GMT 12
What a bug**r of a day Several staff members getting 'The Letters' in the morning then spending the afternoon sorting out people to fill overseas deployment vacancies. Will the last one out of the building please turn the lights off and put the 'Don't wait, were closed' sign up.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 30, 2011 0:25:36 GMT 12
Have you lost your position Paul? I hope not.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 30, 2011 0:43:33 GMT 12
Something that is so often forgotten is that as the Defence Force gets smaller and smaller in numbers, a very important culture - in fact three distinctly different cultures - suffer and diminish. All three armed forces have their own language, dress style, customs, laws, and all that great stuff that goes into a culture. They were once very prominent cultures within New Zealand society, especially in WWI and WWII. But as the numbers currently serving dwindle, and the past members are dying out in greater numbers than ever before, it makes me wonder if in two or three generations kids will ask their fathers "What was the Air Force?" "What was the Navy?"
It means that the museums that preserve those three important cultures are more and more important now then ever before. If they don't keep the memory alive then the Air Force, Army and Navy will soon by like the Mayans, a distant culture who where brlliiant and yet inexplcably died out due to outside influences.
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Post by oggie2620 on Jun 30, 2011 3:14:35 GMT 12
We are going very much the same way Dave and I have the same wonderings....
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Post by SEAN on Jun 30, 2011 7:20:56 GMT 12
Of the Qty 308, 82 were from the RNZAF. Breakdown between the ranks as follows:
Qty 5 WGCDR Qty 18 SQNLDR Qty 12 W/O Qty 12 F/S Qty 16 SGT Qty 9 CPL Qty 10 AC/LAC
Qty 6 GPCAPT positions are also to go.
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Post by Chris F on Jun 30, 2011 8:31:55 GMT 12
I also watched the news last night and not only the NZDF jobs going but the 350 at the meat works in Hawkes Bay.Add to this the on going redudancies in most Government agencies plus all the business in Chrischurch that would just be holding together at best and this country has some real serious issues. Last month NZ set a new record in one month of 3900 people leaving for Australia and was it not this Government who said they would stop this rot and close the wage gap? Yet this same Government let Tranzrail buy cheaper carriages overseas and then lay their own workers off. These current lay off's in the NZDF are cost saving measures meant to be able to allow us to be able to replace expensive hardware in the next 20 years. I bet when the time comes to replace the Hercules,Orions and ANZAC Frigates the Government of the day will ask the NZDF to get another 10 years out of them due to there replacements been unaffordable. A good question for Mr Key would be where are the 170,000 jobs coming from that you promised in the budget?
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Post by motoxjase on Jun 30, 2011 9:08:37 GMT 12
For me the question is why is defence here in NZ not as high on the public agenda as it is in OZ?? I watched on Sky last week the Oz defence Minister talking about a review that is going on in OZ with regard to moving more defense assets north to cover the northern border to counter the arms race in Asia. Why does Oz recognise the potential for conflict in the Asia region and is building its forces to counter this but here in NZ we are still in the Helen Clark thinking of "the world is a lovey dovey place" ? The arguement that our remoteness works in our favor doesnt hold any-more esp when you have China and India entering the Air-Craft carrier game so projection of power in our end of the world is so much easier and yes it is only a matter of time before China sails around this area. So for me Id love to know why do we think differently as far as defense goes compared to our cousins over the ditch??
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 30, 2011 13:35:59 GMT 12
When you look at those figures Sean you realise there's a load of experience among those guys. Hopefully a lot of the experience will be retained in the civilian roles, but that's not the point. That is virtually a small Squadron of people being disbanded.
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Post by Calum on Jun 30, 2011 14:13:46 GMT 12
The only positive I can see is that most of the people being let are coming from middle management in Officers and higher ranks in the NCO's ranks so I'd assume many of these will have done their 20 yrs.
I've always thought the RNZAF was a bit heavy in the SQ Ldr/ Wing Commander range and SNCO range. Especially considering the reduction in overall numbers/force strength since 1990
I could be wrong though and it doesn’t make it any easier for those affected, having lost a job before I can understand what they are going through.
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Post by 30sqnatc on Jun 30, 2011 18:06:47 GMT 12
Have you lost your position Paul? I hope not. I survived but must get posted as my job will now be done by a civi. Unfortunately many around me were not so fortunate.
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Jun 30, 2011 22:37:28 GMT 12
Amazing what short memories Labour MPs have isn't it... Correction....it's amazing what short memories Labour AND National MPs have. Labour MPs criticise Nats MPs for doing what they (Labour MPs) did when they were last in Government. And Nats MPs criticise Labour MPs for doing what they (Nats MPs) did when they were last in Government. Which is why the last time I voted for the Nats was in 1990, and the last time I voted for Labour was in 1987. I might even vote for the Greens later this year! And why not? They can't be any worse than Labour or the Nats (they are definitely way better behaved in Parliament's debating chamber than Nats & Labour MPs .... when did you ever see a Green MP being chucked out of there for bad, childish behaviour?), and if I look on the entertainment bright side, it would wind up plenty of people if I did vote for them! ;D
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Jun 30, 2011 22:57:10 GMT 12
They could have saved $500,000 by not allowing a bi-election in Northland six months out from a General election.Now Hone is on the road with his pay increase campaigning around the country and has allowed a Green MP his vote in Parliament. The cost savings should start in Wellington first! The cost of that by-election was miniscule compared with the increase in the cost of spin-doctors in the Beehive over the past couple of years or so. The figures are all in the public domain and most of them are online. Or in the huge increase in the cost of running the Prime Ministers' Department over the same period. It's strange how politicians who actuall are the government demand cost savings from everyone except themselves.
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Post by nige on Jun 30, 2011 23:02:17 GMT 12
I might even vote for the Greens later this year! And why not? They can't be any worse than Labour or the Nats (they are definitely way better behaved in Parliament's debating chamber than Nats & Labour MPs .... when did you ever see a Green MP being chucked out of there for bad, childish behaviour?), and if I look on the entertainment bright side, it would wind up plenty of people if I did vote for them! ;D No wind up at all, in fact you'd be better off joining the Green Party as a member and educating influencing their foreign policy & defence stance (currently "anti-western" as the US would say), for example, to better support the NZDF on its overseas missions working with other Western & UN powers, in order to provide stable conditions for nation building, good governance and further more, the protection of the people (which is something the Greens tend to overlook, which is rather odd and out of character one would think, eh) eg protection of women's rights, the rights to an education and for them to play a greater role in society in places like Afghanistan (without being blown up by the taliban or kidnapped to perform suicide bombings etc). Plus you appear to have and respect impeccable manners - perfect fit for the Greens! (It does seem hard to wind them up too. They even keep straight faces when they are described as being watermelons in disguise. They must have received some good training from their controllers) ;D
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Post by nige on Jul 1, 2011 19:05:25 GMT 12
No-one biting eh? ;D
Well here's a plan that's so cunning that it might force National to reinstate the air combat force after the 2011 election ...
We forumites here all join the Green Party as members, engage in debating their defence policy, get them to see sense (eg a strong NZ defence force would be able to protect NZ's native flora and fauna, that of our neighbours and other like minded friends).
Make it a prerequsite of formal coalition agreements with the governing National Party that as well as environmental protection and people's rights, that a reinstated air combat force is a non-negotiable bottom line to protect NZ's economic and natural wealth.
The Greens already have ex-foreign affairs official Graham Kennedy who could be persuaded perhaps (and Keith is retiring to a village somewhere to fill a vacany) so now is the time and perhaps the only time we'll ever get a strike force back and people reinstated i.e. job growth in the NZDF to support this .... ;D
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 1, 2011 19:33:55 GMT 12
Nige, I think that plan would be a waste of time. We have enough likeminded members here however to form an all new political party without all the baggage of the wierdo Greens if you were really serious in making a difference, and I think we could find some candidates among us with more nouse than any other minor or major parties, particulalrly the Greens, to take on the Defence issues, and many other important issues facing the nation.
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Post by nige on Jul 1, 2011 20:50:47 GMT 12
Indeed Dave, you're right.
In all seriousness we all bemoan the quality of politicians and their apparent lack of understanding of Defence and their endless tinkering etc.
Really what needs to happen is, former defence staff with good organisational skills (and broad understanding of wider societal issues etc), ought to go into politics. Like they used to. After all it's a right of democracy for anyone nowadays to stand for parilament (assuming they win their party selection etc), just like the nincompoops and do-gooders that also see fit to get into politics.
There must be a few fair experienced officers and other ranks nowadays, that have gained valuable experience and insight with working with other colleagues and international organisations (especially over the last 10-12 years or so) to better the world so to speak. Perhaps it's time these people put their names forward when they do retire from the defence force.
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