Arming RNZAF Orion's

[tfly]

I see the RNZAF website has had a refresh and came across this in reference to the Orion fleet. Can anyone out there throw any light on when this (arming of the Orion's) is likely to go ahead? I'm assuming this refers to 'additional' capability?

Future Directions

A programme to upgrade the Orion's mission systems is underway. Consultation with Government agencies like Fisheries, Customs and Immigration has led to the development of a requirement for a 'single' maritime surveillance role. This requirement (in addition to military requirements) will be met by a programme which upgrades the aircrafts surveillance sensors, communications, navigation, and data-management systems and flight deck systems. A separate project will address the issue of arming the Orion.

These projects will breathe new life into the Orion and ensure that the RNZAF is able to continue to provide effective maritime surveillance for New Zealand and contribute to regional security.

Following link will take you to the page on the RNZAF website I'm referring to:

www.airforce.mil.nz/about-us/force-elements/maritime.htm

[skyhawkdon]

It has been on the RNZAF's wish list for decades and gone no-where. They are talking about an anti-ship missile. The cheap-arse solution was to fit the AGM-65Gs left over from the Skyhawks but that isn't a real solution (they require the launch aircraft to get within visual launch parameters which in a large and slow (relative to a fast jet!) aircraft would be suicide against a modern armed warship! A more realistic solution is something like the Harpoon or Penguin ASMs.

As has been discussed here previously the time to have done this was during the current upgrade (running the necessary wiring etc.). But this hasn't been done (a very short sighted decision).

There is also the delays and issues with the current upgrade - until they are resolved I doubt they will be keen to embark on any more upgrade projects.

[pea032]

from the long term development plan:

P-3 Air-to-Surface Weapons
Description
9.8 This project proposes to equip the P-3 aircraft with an anti-ship missile capability.
Policy Value
9.9 Equipping the P-3 aircraft with an anti-ship missile capability would significantly
enhance the value of these aircraft in fulfilling policy roles relating to the territorial
sovereignty of New Zealand and Australia, playing an appropriate role in the
maintenance of security in the Asia-Pacific region, and participating in the Five
Power Defence Arrangements.
Capability Gap
9.10 Disbanding the Air Combat Force has resulted in the loss of the maritime strike
capability. The P-3s provide targeting information but do not have an anti-ship
capability. The inability to take immediate action against surface threats limits the
P-3s ability to provide force protection for New Zealand naval vessels, particularly
the frigates and, in future, the MRV.
Links to other Capabilities
9.11 This project has links to the following projects and capabilities:
• P-3 Mission, Communications, and Navigation Systems Upgrades
• Multi-Role Vessel
• ANZAC Frigates
Timing
9.12 The timing of this project is dependent on the completion of the P-3 mission
systems upgrade. The modification required to enable the P-3 to launch anti-ship
missiles is relatively straightforward and could be done during routine
maintenance. Before a missile capability is added, the mission systems upgrade
would be necessary to provide sensors capable of locating and properly
identifying targets.
Current Status
9.13 A study will be conducted in due course to determine the appropriate weapons for
the P-3.
Costs
9.14 This project is not yet costed. The estimated life, in service through life costs, and
the total cost of ownership are to be confirmed.

i assume its still on there now, as thats from 2006.
not sure how accurate it being able to be installed during maintence is

[skyhawkdon]

Yeah I agree about it not being a simple task to install during maintenance! There is not only the hardware required, but also the software and system integration and release trials (if it is a weapon that is not already certified on the P-3). Not a minor job...

[Dave Homewood]

I know that the Orion currently can carry bombs, depth charges and torpedoes, but does it have forward firing machine guns for strafing?

[skyhawkdon]

No. They used to be able to fire rockets as well but that capability was removed many years ago.

[beagle]

Nov 9, 2011 7:20:52 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

I know that the Orion currently can carry bombs, depth charges and torpedoes, but does it have forward firing machine guns for strafing?

sorry dave, but i am having a bit of a laugh here

[phil]

Raytheon offer a stand-alone Maverick system that does not require as much integrating into the existing system. Basically you just need to run the cabling from the pylon to a laptop.

I don't know if there is any serious consideration being given to this in regards to our P3s though.

[Calum]

Harpoon is the only practical and useful weapon IMHO. They could even consider SLAM for a land attack capability

[meo4]

It seems highly unlikely as it is not stated in current defence review
Missiles and associated targeting fire control systems upgrades are very costly our two ANZACS are still awaiting replacement of the RIM 7 seasparrow point defence system with upgraded ESSM or similar improved capability.
The orions key role to provide over the horizon ISR coverage.
The possible anti submarine sensor upgrade looks improve the all round ISR utility

[Dave Homewood]

Nov 9, 2011 9:48:38 GMT 12 beagle said:

Nov 9, 2011 7:20:52 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

I know that the Orion currently can carry bombs, depth charges and torpedoes, but does it have forward firing machine guns for strafing?

sorry dave, but i am having a bit of a laugh here

Why is that funny? Surely firing across the bow of a wayward fishing boat, pirates or drug/gun/people smugglers would be a good deterent to their illegal activities. And lets not forget that the Hudsons and Venturas that did the very same job in WWII had front guns, and the first ever RNZAF Pacific air to air kill was by the front guns of a No. 3 Squadron Hudson.

[tfly]

From the sidelines it smacks of bad planning to take the airfraft out of service (in this case its been years for the prototype) for one upgrade and not incorporate the minimum requirements for the next? Surely by the time they get around to finally doing this upgrade the a/c will be up for replacement?

As I say I'm not informed so could be wide of the mark but would appreciate the views of those who are better informed on these matters than myself.

Personally I'm still getting over the shock of the strike force being disbanded (even if it was 10 odd years ago). I would have thought addressing some form of maritime strike capability (even if it was the Orion) would be a matter of priority?

Interested to hear the thoughts of others

[beagle]

Nov 9, 2011 22:54:06 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

Nov 9, 2011 9:48:38 GMT 12 beagle said:

sorry dave, but i am having a bit of a laugh here

Why is that funny? Surely firing across the bow of a wayward fishing boat, pirates or drug/gun/people smugglers would be a good deterent to their illegal activities. .

Thats when we ring Brendon Deere

[meo4]

I thought we did have maritime strike capability on form of embarked seasprites?

[phil]

Nov 10, 2011 4:08:20 GMT 12 tfly said:

From the sidelines it smacks of bad planning to take the airfraft out of service (in this case its been years for the prototype) for one upgrade and not incorporate the minimum requirements for the next?

It has nothing to do with bad planning, and everything to do with what cabinet (the cabinet of the day, not the current one) would approve funding for.

[McFly]

Nov 10, 2011 16:46:29 GMT 12 beagle said:

That's when we ring Brendon Deere

Did someone say 'Spitfire'...!!