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Post by errolmartyn on Mar 21, 2012 9:05:02 GMT 12
littlegreyrabbit appears to have made a typo when entering his/her nickname on the forum.
Clearly littlegreyrabid was really intended.
Errol
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Post by fwx on Mar 21, 2012 11:00:54 GMT 12
Watched this last night - very well done, and extremely thought-provoking.
Kogon doesn't get a mention in Lamason's version of how he came to find out about the likely impending execution (despite what his Wikipedia page says) ... but on the other hand, Kogon's half-dozen sentences covering the airmen at Buchenwald (quoted by Littlegreyrabbit) are hardly definitive proof of whether he (Kogon) knew about this, or not.
There is no reason I can think of why Lamason would make this story up after the fact, and there are other instances quoted in the Buchenwald history where inmates became aware of impending executions through their contacts, so it seems entirely believable.
In the documentary, Lamason is obviously still haunted by his decision to refuse the SOE prisoners' request to join his "group" - he was attempting to minimise the possibility of the Germans lumping his men together with the genuine spies and saboteurs, which might increase the risk of execution. As he says, he will never know if that would have made a difference to the fate of Yeo-Thomas's men.
No sign here of a man looking to embellish or re-write the truth.
I also think he deserves our recognition and thanks, as one of our true heroes.
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Post by chinapilot on Mar 21, 2012 11:14:09 GMT 12
Errolmartyn Well put! Ian
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 21, 2012 11:16:49 GMT 12
Do you all think we should take the Otago farmers' approach to the trolling rabbit?
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Post by fwx on Mar 21, 2012 11:30:32 GMT 12
Easter is approaching after all ...!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 21, 2012 12:32:45 GMT 12
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Post by wheezynana on Mar 21, 2012 12:55:15 GMT 12
I watched the excellent documentary and felt extremely proud of those brave men. How dare that 'rabbit' question the veracity of these men and especially our own Phil Lamason - a true NZ hero. Thanks fwx for the above photo - send that 'rabbit' back to the hole he obviously crawled out of.
Anne
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Post by Tony on Mar 21, 2012 13:04:26 GMT 12
Mike Dammit I missed the screening!!! Will keep an eye out for the Kiwi version.
Interesting discussion has developed here
Rabbit - Simple Identify yourself!!!!!!!!!!!
Regards Macfire aka Tony McDonald (identity not hidden)
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Post by lostairmendirector on Mar 21, 2012 16:02:39 GMT 12
fwx - That's what's so ridiculous about rabbit's bizarre obsession with this one moment from the film (which he won't watch). If you know Lamason at all, he really doesn't give a damn about any of this. He came home from the war and moved on with his life. The idea that he would make up a story like this, or be part of some misinformation campaign run by the "Yanks," is beyond absurd to anyone who knows him. And you can't fake his emotion when talking about the SOE agents who died - it genuinely haunts the man, I think, to this day, that he may have been able to save them. Although I think he made the correct decision not to combine their two groups.
But trash like rabbit have hidden agendas, of course. You'll notice he doesn't question the story about the German Luftwaffe officers rescuing these airmen from the camp, even though we haven't been able to locate a shred of hard evidence that they were ever there. We searched the Buchenwald archives and the records don't show them ever entering the camp. Hmm, wonder why rabbit doesn't question the one thing that makes the Germans look good? Suddenly the mountain of eye-witness testimony we collected is enough, just as Kogon is a reliable source for disputing Lamason's story, but then not a reliable source when it comes to The Buchenwald Report's confirmation that the SOE were murdered in the crematorium.
This is why I don't want to get too far into a debate with folks like rabbit because it could go on for weeks, with them never satisified, and I have other films to make and a job and a life.
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Post by lostairmendirector on Mar 21, 2012 16:05:44 GMT 12
Thanks wheezynana and Macfire. As for missing the airing, we are checking with Prime TV to see if they plan to run it again. I'll keep everyone posted. And hopefully we'll have an NZ version of the DVD available soon, which will be a longer "director's" cut with about 20 minutes of extra content, including the story of what happened to the traitor, Jacques Desoubri. BY THE WAY: Here's our Facebook page for the film, to help follow its progress: www.facebook.com/lostairmenSeveral Kiwis have made there way over there this week to post kind messages.
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Post by fwx on Mar 21, 2012 16:15:03 GMT 12
In my opinion you did a fantastic job of telling the story Mike, and thank you for bringing this to a lot of people's attention who otherwise wouldn't have known about this episode. I had also read about it in Lambert's Night After Night, but until you see the film, its hard to grasp what they went through. It's not just the extra detail you provide, but the character and words of the men themselves. Thanks again and keep up the great work! Cheers, Chris
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 21, 2012 17:11:01 GMT 12
I'm related via my Dad's side of the family to the other New Zealander that was there along side Phil Lamason - Malcolm Cullen htbrst, can you please tell us more about Malcolm Cullen? What did he fly in, how/where/when was he shot down? What aircrew role was he? Is he still alive?
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Post by lostairmendirector on Mar 21, 2012 17:25:07 GMT 12
I'm related via my Dad's side of the family to the other New Zealander that was there along side Phil Lamason - Malcolm Cullen htbrst, can you please tell us more about Malcolm Cullen? What did he fly in, how/where/when was he shot down? What aircrew role was he? Is he still alive? I too would love to know this. His neighbor in the Auckland area actually traveled to Wellington to attend our screening there in November.
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Post by htbrst on Mar 21, 2012 18:13:50 GMT 12
He was a Typhoon pilot and died in 2002 - I don't know too much more as that part of the family is at the other end of the country, but I don't think he was ever 'the same' There is an article about him in RNZAF news from 2008: www.airforce.mil.nz/operations/airforce-news/archive/93/flier-remembered.htmHe write a small booklet that is quite rare but comes up on Trademe occasionally. I've never read it but might borrow a copy at some stage. I only caught the first half, but glad to hear above that there was mention of the marches from Stalag Luft III (etc). An often forgotten part of the POW story as it happened at the end of the war where so many died who were previously 'safe' having been forced to march in such intensely cold conditions with no resources My grandfather became forever fond of Freisan cattle as he was lucky enough to sleep beside one on one of the coldest nights when others perished in the cold
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 21, 2012 19:04:22 GMT 12
Thanks for that info. Yes that long march was horrendous, several ex-POW's have described it to me.
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Post by errolmartyn on Mar 21, 2012 22:14:09 GMT 12
htbrst, can you please tell us more about Malcolm Cullen? What did he fly in, how/where/when was he shot down? What aircrew role was he? Is he still alive? I too would love to know this. His neighbor in the Auckland area actually traveled to Wellington to attend our screening there in November. NZ421963 Flt Lt Malcolm Ford Cullen Born Maungaturoto 22 Dec 1918 RNZAF 21 Mar 1942 to 5 Dec 1945 He enlisted as a WOp/AG u/t but, unusually, was later remustered as an airman pilot u/t, completing his training in Canada, having left New Zealand on the Matsonia on 2 Oct 1942 Shot down by flak over Picquigny, France, during a Typhoon attack by 257 Squadron on a ground target in the Oisement/Ferviere area 24 May 1944 PoW #8047 Safe UK 26 May 1945 Died 5 Sep 2002 Errol
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 21, 2012 22:30:42 GMT 12
Thanks Errol.
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Post by littlegreyrabbit on Mar 22, 2012 23:43:25 GMT 12
Watched this last night - very well done, and extremely thought-provoking. Kogon doesn't get a mention in Lamason's version of how he came to find out about the likely impending execution (despite what his Wikipedia page says) ... but on the other hand, Kogon's half-dozen sentences covering the airmen at Buchenwald (quoted by Littlegreyrabbit) are hardly definitive proof of whether he (Kogon) knew about this, or not. There is no reason I can think of why Lamason would make this story up after the fact, and there are other instances quoted in the Buchenwald history where inmates became aware of impending executions through their contacts, so it seems entirely believable. In the documentary, Lamason is obviously still haunted by his decision to refuse the SOE prisoners' request to join his "group" - he was attempting to minimise the possibility of the Germans lumping his men together with the genuine spies and saboteurs, which might increase the risk of execution. As he says, he will never know if that would have made a difference to the fate of Yeo-Thomas's men. No sign here of a man looking to embellish or re-write the truth. I also think he deserves our recognition and thanks, as one of our true heroes. Well as my only goal in joining this board was to find out if Lamason had been verballed by the Canadians or not in regards to the execution order. It appears not. The second question which everyone skirts around, is what exactly is account of how he came to know. I generally take reticence on such subjects as indication that people secretly, in their heart of hearts, don't believe the story either. But I live in hope. In Destination Buchenwald Colin Burgess seems to suggest that Lamason claims that four other people knew. A German communist (possibly Kogon - if we accept the Wikipedia page). Yeo-Thomas, a Dutch Olympic trainer Jan Robert. And SOE agent Christopher Burney. Eugen Kogon doesn't mention it in his memoirs, Yeo-Thomas didn't in his memoirs, I am not aware of Jan Robert writing memoirs. That leaves Christopher Burney. Christopher Burney wrote his Buchenwald memoir in 1945/46, Dungeon Democracy. And, you guessed it, he doesn't seem aware of the execution order either or any drama surrounding the 168 airmen. As I said previously, my main interest was with the possible execution of the SOE agents. I have considered the possibility that the Germans broke more the British agents that the SOE was willing to admit in the late 40s and that all agents who did end up surviving in the concentration camps had cooperated in some fashion. Jean Fuller speculated on this in her book "The Starr Affair." : www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/may/18/obituary-jean-overton-fullerThe trouble is that SOE and military intelligence all tend to construct their own histories, and organisations that begin by practising deception on the enemy may find that practising deception on their own public a relatively easy step. This might explain both Phil Lamason's sustained reticence after the war and his subsequent reluctant stepping into the limited lime-light with accounts that seem in part inconsistent with the known facts. Since you ask for a motive. Phil Lamason claims that the SOE agents were executed in the cellar of the crematorium by strangling with piano wire. While there were a few hooks in the cellar a few days after liberation, a rather large number got added later. If you are interested, you can view the pictures here: littlegreyrabbit.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/the-one-true-crematorium-of-kl-buchenwald/I even give Mike Dorsey's film a plug.
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Post by chinapilot on Mar 23, 2012 0:03:30 GMT 12
How about some carrots laced with 1080 for this bunny....
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 23, 2012 0:08:23 GMT 12
I think it's rather sad that good, brave men like Phil Lamason sacrificed their normal lifestyles and went half a world away and fought the nazis to allow people freedom of speech and political opinion, only for that right to be abused by nazi-loving revisionists and apologists.
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