NZ4516 'Patua Te Ra' camouflage?

[dewobz]

Further to what is effectively a new thread started in Catalina NZ4010 XX-L, I will share my thoughts as to the possibility that 'Patua Te Ra' is repainted in NZ Blue Sea Grey over NZ Sky Grey. They are all anecdotal and I am not trying to push a barrow.
First, yes, Dec 1943 does seem early for a repaint. I wonder if there is any record of when repaints were done? My thoughts (albethey anecdotal) -
1) The 'short wave' demarcation line between upper and lower colours on 4516's nose. This seems unusual to me. 'Slippery Sam' had (what I call) 'long waves' but most PV-1s as far as I can tell had relatively straight demarcation lines.
2) In the peak of particularly the second wave in from the front it looks to me as though another, lighter upper colour is showing.
3) The overall effect of the paint on the uppers nose area seems dark to me. Of course this could be the light but the paintwork has what I might call a 'fresh' look.
4) The uppers paint on the cowling does not 'wrap' around just under the opening (as it does on 'Slippery Sam') but appears to turn upwards into the opening, leaving an area of lowers colour in the centre of the opening. This might equate with what appears to me to be a general lowering of the demarcation line in repaint schemes.
5) Although very little of the top of 4516's nose is visible, not as much as in the 'Slippery Sam' photo, I cannot see a demarcation line for Intermediate Blue/NS Sea Blue. There is a line of rivets (I think?) but I don't perceive the definite colour change visible on Slippery Sam.
6) In most cases, I gather, when we talk about RNZAF PV-1 artwork it is artwork that "survived into the operational area"? 'Patua Te Ra' is surely locally applied and therefore freshly painted artwork? Freshly painted artwork atop fresh paint I wonder?
7) We know (from hobbyvista.com) that NZ4515 was repainted and from Classic Warbirds that NZ4518 was repainted. NZ4517 was written off in Oct '43. Therefore the two surviving aircraft serialled either side of NZ4516 were repainted (at some time).
8) In the photo of the work area at Piva with NZ4518 her paintwork looks quite faded. This photograph (from memory) is undated in the book but let's say, for argument's sake, it was taken in Dec '44? Could she, 4515 & 4516 have been repainted a year or more earlier, at which time (Dec '43) their paintwork would look fresh?
9) One might conclude that the underside colour on 4516 is simply too light to be NZ Sky Grey and must be Insignia White. Compare the underside colour lightness and contrast between upper & lower colours in the photo of NZ4551 in flight later in the book. The NZ Sky Grey looks very light.
I hope these thoughts are worthy of consideration.
Regards,
Wally.

[Dave Homewood]

Just some additional information on this aircraft:

NZ4516 and five other Venturas in the first wave flew from Whenuapai up to Guadalcanal (with all the usual stops between) with the crew of:
Captain - F/Lt Geoff Davis
Nav - F/O Ernie Stillwell
WOp/AG - P/O Peter Ferguson
AG - Sgt Alby Taylor
AG - Sgt L. Rondon

It left Whenuapai on the 17th of October 1943, and arrived at Norfolk Island, where it overnighted. On the 18th the aircraft flew to Tontouta, New Caledonia where it was refuellled and flew onwards to Espirtitu Santo.

On the 19th of November five of the six aircraft departed for the ferry flight to Henderson Field, Guadalcanal. NZ4506 had failed to start and had to stay behind. However en route to Guadalcanal NZ4516 was recalled to base and returned to Santo.

NZ4516 and NZ4506 departed Santo for Henderson Field on the 20th of November 1943.

NZ4516's missions specifically mentioned in the ORB pages I have include:
- 7/11/43 - F/Lt Geoff Davis and crew - strike, bombing and strafing barges landing at Atainima Bay, Bougainville
- 14/12/1943 - NZ4516 returned to base from the 51B patrol after 35 minutes of smoke in the cabin caused by perishing of rubber in exhaust overboard return line in vacuum pump. Pilot was either John Coom or Ian Page, not sure which.

I have no more evidence yet as this comes from the Part 5 of the ORB which is more notes whereas the Part 2 of the book with all the actuall seril-crew-mission details I stupidly only photographed selected pages from. I need to go back to Wellingotn and re-photograph the whole lot.
- 18/1/44 - Damage to NZ4516. Ventura PV-1 NZ4516 sustained damaged tailwheel when ready to take off from Pivaand subsequently severely damaged by Americans when removing the aircraft from the runway.

[Dave Homewood]

Having now looked into the actual paint scheme I agree it is a repaint of some sort. When it was new and was still at Whenuapai it had a very soft demarkation line between blue and white. See here (also note the nose art is not yet on it. This is early in the re-equipment of the squadron - though some aircraft had received NZ-applied nose art by this time).

[Dave Homewood]

By the way that photo I posted is cropped from one that I think must be Air Force Museum of New Zealand Official.

Jun 14, 2012 12:44:20 GMT 12 dewobz said:

First, yes, Dec 1943 does seem early for a repaint. I wonder if there is any record of when repaints were done?

No. 10 Servicing Unit will have had some sort of records of when repaints were done, I'm sure, but whether they have survived till today is the big question. To most it's hardly history worth keeping once the aircraft has left the service, sadly.

1) The 'short wave' demarcation line between upper and lower colours on 4516's nose. This seems unusual to me. 'Slippery Sam' had (what I call) 'long waves' but most PV-1s as far as I can tell had relatively straight demarcation lines.

All up to the man with the spray gun on the day I would think. I doubt there was official reason to spray different length waves as such.

2) In the peak of particularly the second wave in from the front it looks to me as though another, lighter upper colour is showing.

Don't forget there is shadow on most of the nose.

3) The overall effect of the paint on the uppers nose area seems dark to me. Of course this could be the light but the paintwork has what I might call a 'fresh' look.

The artwork looks very fresh, perhaps it was only recently applied to the aeroplane that week. The blue paint itself looks reasonably fresh thought the cowl ring shows damage but that may have been from only one or two flights, or maybe it was removed and scraped on the ground. We won't know. The nose cap has also been repainted from the original colour in the photo above too.

4) The uppers paint on the cowling does not 'wrap' around just under the opening (as it does on 'Slippery Sam') but appears to turn upwards into the opening, leaving an area of lowers colour in the centre of the opening. This might equate with what appears to me to be a general lowering of the demarcation line in repaint schemes.

I see what you mean but again it could be down to the man with the spray gun. The white, though wavy, looks no higher or lower to me than its original scheme. note in the Whenuapai shot it appears to have a little of the cowl wrap too.

5) Although very little of the top of 4516's nose is visible, not as much as in the 'Slippery Sam' photo, I cannot see a demarcation line for Intermediate Blue/NS Sea Blue. There is a line of rivets (I think?) but I don't perceive the definite colour change visible on Slippery Sam.

In the Whenuapai shot it changes where the gun protrudes. You cannot see the gun in the later shot so we'll never know.

6) In most cases, I gather, when we talk about RNZAF PV-1 artwork it is artwork that "survived into the operational area"? 'Patua Te Ra' is surely locally applied and therefore freshly painted artwork? Freshly painted artwork atop fresh paint I wonder?

Most of the artwork seems to have stayed on in the operational area with No. 1 Squadron's use of the No. 10 SU aircraft. The notion some people have that it was all removed before heading north from NZ is nonsense. Maybe a couple of the more offensive Donald Ducks were painted out but the kiwi applied stuff all went north as far as I can tell. But I agree that in this case the aircraft has been fully repainted and the artwork recently applied or reapplied.

7) We know (from hobbyvista.com) that NZ4515 was repainted and from Classic Warbirds that NZ4518 was repainted. NZ4517 was written off in Oct '43. Therefore the two surviving aircraft serialled either side of NZ4516 were repainted (at some time).

Yes. Definitely repainted. not sure when, I need to access the Part 2 of the ORB to see when it wasn't flying.

8) In the photo of the work area at Piva with NZ4518 her paintwork looks quite faded. This photograph (from memory) is undated in the book but let's say, for argument's sake, it was taken in Dec '44? Could she, 4515 & 4516 have been repainted a year or more earlier, at which time (Dec '43) their paintwork would look fresh?

Which photo are you referring to here?

My conclusion is that in the photo it has been repainted, and as it was severely damaged by the Americans at Piva in January 1944, perhaps when rebuilt it was painted then. By the time it was rebuilt I'd imagine Davis and his crew will have been allocated a different aircraft as their personal mount, and Spic Spicer may have taken it over as his personal aircraft and applied the artwork post-rebuild and repaint. Just a thoery. What do you think?

No. 2 Squadron took over the aircraft of No. 10 SU in February 1944 though, maybe the label was applied by a No. 2 BR Sqn crew? Who has the proof that Spicer was connected to the artwork and aircraft?

[dewobz]

Good points all. Once again today I have not bought Classic Warbirds 'Pacific Twins' to work where I have internet access. The Piva work area photo is further on in the book from the 'Patua Te Ra' nose photo and is the second such picture. It includes NZ4503 and another PV-1 with field repaints in NS Sea Blue. NZ4518 is parked between them. The only 'problem' I see with a January or Feb '44 repaint of NZ4516 is the date on the Dec '43 nose photograph. The artwork is already there and, as you seem to agree, the aircraft has been repainted (though not necessarily in NZ BSG/NZ Sky). Could the Dec '43 date on the photograph in the book be incorrect? If she was still 3 tone scheme in this photograph, I wonder what the painters did about the background colour of the artwork when repainting her (again)? Or perhaps they would have repainted the artwork too?

[Dave Homewood]

"8) In the photo of the work area at Piva with NZ4518 her paintwork looks quite faded. This photograph (from memory) is undated in the book but let's say, for argument's sake, it was taken in Dec '44? Could she, 4515 & 4516 have been repainted a year or more earlier, at which time (Dec '43) their paintwork would look fresh?"

No. 10 Servicing Unit moved from Guadalcanal to Piva, Bougainville in April 1944. NZ4518 returned to New Zealand arounf 20/21 May 1944, according to adf.serials.com. By October 1944 No. 10 SU had moved to Emirau.

So my guess is the photo in question is April-May 1944.

[dewobz]

Dave, this topic all began because you had artwork for a 'Patua Te Ra' decal as your avatar for a while. You asked if anyone else was interested and two of us replied A-ffirmative. Has anything transpired about the decal(s) for NZ4516? If not, could you possibly send me the artwork so I can print my own?
Cheers, Wally.