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Post by Luther Moore on Jun 27, 2012 2:16:37 GMT 12
Does anyone know if the aircraft flying on daily missions in WWII had radios to contact the bases? Reason I ask is I was thinking about the Green Island tragedy and I was wondering if the distress calls were heard back at the base.
I know the larger bombers had Wireless operators and you could talk from fighter to fighter but I have never heard of fighters calling bases to report situations.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 27, 2012 9:50:01 GMT 12
Yes Corsairs carried radios. It was standard practice in the RNZAF to maintain radio silence unless in an emergency - unlike the US squadrons where constant radio chatter was apparently the normal thing. The RNZAF bombers such as Ventura and Hudson had both wireless telegraphy for Morse code and they had voice radio which the pilot used in special situations.
In the case of Green Island's disaster I think from memory that the base had been alerted to the initial downing of Keefe through radio as back up aircraft were called in before the others already covering him went home. And also I am sure that the bases were made aware of the storm which killed so many pilots too. Remember back then the radio signal would not have gone as far as there were no satellites, and so messages were usually picked up by ships or other patrolling aircraft like the Dumbo Catalina or Venturas, or even ground stations, etc and relayed to base, sometimes through several relays. So it may take some time for the message to get through.
An example, when Fred Thomas and his crew had to land their stricken Ventura at Talasea, the US base there radioed a message intended to get to the RNZAF base at Piva North to tell them the crew were safe. The message finally came through at Piva AFTER the crew had arrived back there a day or so later!
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Post by camtech on Jun 27, 2012 10:02:01 GMT 12
Most, if not all of the larger aircraft had HF sets, so could call base in an emergency. VHF has a relatively short range and is line of sight (in theory). If a VHF equipped aircraft climbed to a reasonable altitude, with a good set and ideal conditions, signals could be picked up quite some distance away.
HF radio in those days usually relied on a trailing aerial being wound out from the aircraft for transmission, then wound back before landing. There are a number of stories of Ventura radio ops forgetting to wind the aerial in and it snagging on trees or bouncing off the sea while at low altidude or on approach.
Later aircraft had a fixed wire aerial strung from the tail forward to a fuselage connector, or like the UH-1 had it zig zagged along the fuselage or tail.
Current technology allows for the use of a tuned mast aerial - high efficiency and less drag.
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Post by Luther Moore on Jun 27, 2012 23:30:46 GMT 12
Yes Corsairs carried radios. It was standard practice in the RNZAF to maintain radio silence unless in an emergency - unlike the US squadrons where constant radio chatter was apparently the normal thing. The RNZAF bombers such as Ventura and Hudson had both wireless telegraphy for Morse code and they had voice radio which the pilot used in special situations. In the case of Green Island's disaster I think from memory that the base had been alerted to the initial downing of Keefe through radio as back up aircraft were called in before the others already covering him went home. And also I am sure that the bases were made aware of the storm which killed so many pilots too. Remember back then the radio signal would not have gone as far as there were no satellites, and so messages were usually picked up by ships or other patrolling aircraft like the Dumbo Catalina or Venturas, or even ground stations, etc and relayed to base, sometimes through several relays. So it may take some time for the message to get through. An example, when Fred Thomas and his crew had to land their stricken Ventura at Talasea, the US base there radioed a message intended to get to the RNZAF base at Piva North to tell them the crew were safe. The message finally came through at Piva AFTER the crew had arrived back there a day or so later! Very interesting reading,cheers. |
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Post by Luther Moore on Jun 27, 2012 23:33:30 GMT 12
Most, if not all of the larger aircraft had HF sets, so could call base in an emergency. VHF has a relatively short range and is line of sight (in theory). If a VHF equipped aircraft climbed to a reasonable altitude, with a good set and ideal conditions, signals could be picked up quite some distance away. HF radio in those days usually relied on a trailing aerial being wound out from the aircraft for transmission, then wound back before landing. There are a number of stories of Ventura radio ops forgetting to wind the aerial in and it snagging on trees or bouncing off the sea while at low altidude or on approach. Later aircraft had a fixed wire aerial strung from the tail forward to a fuselage connector, or like the UH-1 had it zig zagged along the fuselage or tail. Current technology allows for the use of a tuned mast aerial - high efficiency and less drag. I wonder if one of my CB's could communicate with one of the old UHF they would of used? Would love to get my hands on one of those bad boys or a Marconi. |
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zolteg
Flight Lieutenant
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Post by zolteg on Jun 30, 2012 13:18:59 GMT 12
Most, if not all of the larger aircraft had HF sets, so could call base in an emergency. VHF has a relatively short range and is line of sight (in theory). If a VHF equipped aircraft climbed to a reasonable altitude, with a good set and ideal conditions, signals could be picked up quite some distance away. HF radio in those days usually relied on a trailing aerial being wound out from the aircraft for transmission, then wound back before landing. There are a number of stories of Ventura radio ops forgetting to wind the aerial in and it snagging on trees or bouncing off the sea while at low altidude or on approach. Later aircraft had a fixed wire aerial strung from the tail forward to a fuselage connector, or like the UH-1 had it zig zagged along the fuselage or tail. Current technology allows for the use of a tuned mast aerial - high efficiency and less drag. I wonder if one of my CB's could communicate with one of the old UHF they would of used? Would love to get my hands on one of those bad boys or a Marconi. CB radio operates around 27Mhz, top of the HF band. UHF (at least, military UHF) works in the 225Mhz - 400Mhz region. UHF would've been fairly rare if not unheard of during that period I would've thought.... |
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Post by Luther Moore on Jul 20, 2012 8:08:18 GMT 12
How about if you had a AN/PRC-77, would hand held Uniden CB be able to communicate with it? I know the PRC uses VHF FM channels.
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zolteg
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 82
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Post by zolteg on Jul 21, 2012 21:29:31 GMT 12
No, PRC-77 completely different frequency band and modulation.
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Post by raymond on Jul 21, 2012 22:13:03 GMT 12
Military radios typically work in the following ranges, the following is from the ARC 182 which was used by the RNZAF that was first installed in the 80's.
FM 30-88 MHz, (Typical Army frequencies)
AM 108-156 MHz, (108 to 117.975 receive only) 118 to 156 ATC comms
FM 156-174 MHz (Maritime band)
AM/FM 225.0-399.975 normal military air to air comms but mainly AM is used
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Post by davidduxbury on Jul 22, 2012 10:33:57 GMT 12
I have a list of radios and radar equipment (including intercom) in use by RNZAF in about 1952, which gives each type of equipment in each type of aircraft (including diffferences if there was more than one standard configuration) as well as operating frequency ranges. This list includes Sunderland, Catalina, Hastings, B.170, Mosquito, Devon (3 configs), Oxford, Consul, Dominie, Vampire, Mustang, Harvard (2 configs), Auster (fitted with the locally manufactured "Airmite" radio at this time, a small firm in Wellington I believe), plus TBF Avenger. The new British aircraft fitted with British postwar radios, etc, mostly Marconi civil models, except Vampire. Standard wartime American equipment (Army, Navy or AN) still in use in various aircraft, including all the surviving American types. Tiger Moth does not appear in list because they had no standard fit at this time, although the forest patrol Tigers and single Fox Moth used in period 1946 - 1948 DID had R/T equipment (American), but for some reason the Anson not included in list, although it was retired at about the same time as the Oxford and Consul - this would still have been fitted with wartime 1154/1155 equipment, similar to that fitted in Mosquito. The obsolete British types (Oxford, Consul, Dominie) had obsolete American HF equipment by this time (SCR-274, or SCR-183 in case of Domine). The original list was compiled and supplied by Marconi's Wireless Telegraph Company Ltd, Chelmsford, UK, and Amalgamated Wireless (Australasia) Ltd of Wellington, NZ.
David D
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Post by Luther Moore on Jul 22, 2012 11:37:42 GMT 12
Military radios typically work in the following ranges, the following is from the ARC 182 which was used by the RNZAF that was first installed in the 80's. FM 30-88 MHz, (Typical Army frequencies) AM 108-156 MHz, (108 to 117.975 receive only) 118 to 156 ATC comms FM 156-174 MHz (Maritime band) AM/FM 225.0-399.975 normal military air to air comms but mainly AM is used Excuse me if I get lost here..Dont know too much about this stuff. So these army/airforce radios use FM/AM like normal house radio use? If so it must of been easy to listen in to the enemy,right? What other sort of radio could communicate with a PRC-77? I would love to get one later on in the future (as i'm broke now) and would love to test it.I dont think they make batteries for them anymore but a little engineering could fix that easy.Also I heard you might need a licence to use them,is that true? |
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Post by Luther Moore on Jul 22, 2012 11:38:59 GMT 12
I have a list of radios and radar equipment (including intercom) in use by RNZAF in about 1952, which gives each type of equipment in each type of aircraft (including diffferences if there was more than one standard configuration) as well as operating frequency ranges. This list includes Sunderland, Catalina, Hastings, B.170, Mosquito, Devon (3 configs), Oxford, Consul, Dominie, Vampire, Mustang, Harvard (2 configs), Auster (fitted with the locally manufactured "Airmite" radio at this time, a small firm in Wellington I believe), plus TBF Avenger. The new British aircraft fitted with British postwar radios, etc, mostly Marconi civil models, except Vampire. Standard wartime American equipment (Army, Navy or AN) still in use in various aircraft, including all the surviving American types. Tiger Moth does not appear in list because they had no standard fit at this time, although the forest patrol Tigers and single Fox Moth used in period 1946 - 1948 DID had R/T equipment (American), but for some reason the Anson not included in list, although it was retired at about the same time as the Oxford and Consul - this would still have been fitted with wartime 1154/1155 equipment, similar to that fitted in Mosquito. The obsolete British types (Oxford, Consul, Dominie) had obsolete American HF equipment by this time (SCR-274, or SCR-183 in case of Domine). The original list was compiled and supplied by Marconi's Wireless Telegraph Company Ltd, Chelmsford, UK, and Amalgamated Wireless (Australasia) Ltd of Wellington, NZ. David D Are these radio's still around on the market? Must be worth a pretty penny now. |
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Post by davidduxbury on Jul 23, 2012 9:53:50 GMT 12
Luther,
Most of the WW2 equipment would be quite rare in NZ, but some survivors would be held in Museums. etc (including Wigram, MoTaT, also in overseas Museums around the world), while some specialist radio enthusiasts collect them too. My late father used to have a 1082 or 1083 (complete with its box of replaceable valves, this type installed in all larger RAF aircraft from mid-1930s till the middle of WW2), as well as a British-type rotatable D/F loop. The RNZAF Museum has some 1154/1155 equipment, as well as a good selection of the Marconi commercial equipment which was used on all those 1950s British aircraft. Because of the interest in older types of aircraft radio and radar equipment that they would command quite good prices at auction (on-line and otherwise), and you should be able to find proces by tapping your computer keys. However the array of equipment avaiable would be quite varied and you would have to know what you were really looking for.
David D
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Post by Luther Moore on Jul 23, 2012 10:07:52 GMT 12
 Is that the 1082? It was hard just to find a photo of it! This is the sort I want.Not too expensive either.Love the Vietnam stuff..It would go nice with my M1 steel helmet.  |
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Post by davidduxbury on Jul 23, 2012 13:52:46 GMT 12
A correction to my earlier posts; the "Air Mite" VHF transceiver (designated as VAC-1) was actually manufactured in Australia by AWA (Amalgamated Wireless of Australia), and not in NZ. It was developed and put into production about 1948, and was used in the RNZAF in the Auster J/5s as well as retrofitted in Harvard 2A, operated on frequencies 111.5 - 122.5 Mc/s. The RNZAF's Harvard 3s at this time used the WW2-vintage AN/ARC-5 command set (the "AN" version of the earlier US Army Air Corps SCR-274-N), which operated on HF frequencies 2 - 9.1 and VHF frequencies 100 - 156 Mc/s.) Actually once you know the designation of a specific radio set (or major componenet of the set) you can use the interent to find out just about everything about it. I have had some fun looking up the various radio and radar sets used by the RNZAF in WW2, and much excellent material is available, particularly as regards general specification, wiring diagrams, general desctriptions, performance and background design features and subsequent modifications, also a certain amount on production and service problems. However there is little in history of these radios in the RNZAF as such.
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Post by raymond on Jul 23, 2012 18:39:28 GMT 12
[quote author=luthermoore board=Wartime thread=16644 post=162813 time=1342913862So these army/airforce radios use FM/AM like normal house radio use? If so it must of been easy to listen in to the enemy,right?
What other sort of radio could communicate with a PRC-77? I would love to get one later on in the future (as i'm broke now) and would love to test it.I dont think they make batteries for them anymore but a little engineering could fix that easy.Also I heard you might need a licence to use them,is that true?[/quote]
Typically if you have a radio that can tune in to these frequencies then yes you can hear communications unless they are using some form of encryption which would today be used for any operation.
Im not sure of operating a "PRC 77" (I think this is in the low VHF FM band 30 to 88 Mhz) but suspect you would need a license and there would be a restricted number of frequencies that could be used (the govt has sold off most of these). There is a frequency spectrum office in NZ that watches over this.
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Post by Luther Moore on Jul 24, 2012 8:03:32 GMT 12
At my old work we had radio's and I remember my boss telling me he had to buy the rights to use the radio's we used,I never understood what he meant.Would that be what your saying about the Government selling the frequencies?
So these radios must be tuned in to the payed for frequencies inside the radio,right?If so they might be able to be hacked somehow.
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Post by tbf25o4 on Jul 24, 2012 9:46:42 GMT 12
Greetings,
In relation to the original question re the Green Island and Keefe. It was a known fact that Japanese radio intercept stations around the Rabaul area, monitored allied aircraft HF radio frequencies, and indeed in the early days of Rabaul Raids from Green Island they would listen for radios being checked on the ground (tuning calls) before the aircraft were dispatched on a raid. From those intercepts they could then calculate with a degree of accuracy when the aircraft would be over Rabaul.
Hence the need for radio silence was introduced.
In addition, there were some HF Directional Finding stations that when a pilot was lost he could make a procedural call, and the ground station would use switching sense aerial to determine the direction of the calling aircraft then broadcast a course for him to steer to the nearest airfield. (QDM)
VHF in those wartime aircraft was pretty basic and only used for inter-flight comms when in close formation (outside of radio silence periods, or when in combat) or when communicating with a tower for take-off and landing.
As a telegraphist in the mid 1960s we were taught VHF/CRDF direction finding as part of our course at Wigram. This system was mainly used for practice with Harvards.
As David Duxbury points out during the mid 1950s and through to the mid 1960s, nearly all RNZAF aircraft were fitted with the same HF/VHF Marconi equipment. In the case of HF transmitters and receivers, it was great from a Signallers point of view in that they could move from aircraft to aircraft type and be immediately familiar with the radios.
cheers
Paul
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Post by Luther Moore on Jul 24, 2012 15:30:45 GMT 12
Would of been easy to trick the Japs into thinking you were going to strike somewhere else.Didn't the Japs use normal radio to transmit messages to try and scare the enemy,or was that Vietnam?
Here is a great site that you can listen to Police or Fire radio chatter from the US..http://www.radioreference.com/apps/audio/?ctid=1855
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zolteg
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 82
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Post by zolteg on Jul 25, 2012 21:40:45 GMT 12
Paul (tbf24o4), if you facebook you may be interested in checking out the RNZAF Communications group. There's a bunch of ex operators and techies hanging around on there, from all eras.
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