Question-Could the Combat Force be rebuilt?

[dav3469]

Hello. First I would like to say I have enjoyed the site for awhile as a lurker. Very informative.

Being from the U.S., I don't have a complete grasp of the situation in New Zealand as far as the politics go, but have followed the developments regarding the Air Combat Force since 2001.

The question I have is could the force be rebuilt "real world"?

Would it be economically feasible or is all the infrastructure gone? Or are personnel issues (lack of) the big problem.

On a side note, I made my first trip to Auckland (just a quick layover) while enroute to my in-law's in Australia recently. Just a beautiful country. I look forward to making a trip to N.Z. in the future. I know N.Z. is known as an "adventure sports" mecca, but is it just as good for a visiting pilot?

Thanks for the great website

dave

[beagle]

Hi Dave, welcome to the group.
Well the topic of the good old air combat wing.
A brief description of our air force.
bases... qty 2
1 housing B757 transport, C130 hercules transport (first H models built) P3-K Orions and SH-2G Seasprites.
The other one has UH-IH iroquois , Bell 47 Sioux , CT4E Airttainers and B200 Kingairs.
They want to disband the base with Herks etc and move it all south to make one huge air base.
Sounds really good if Australia want to come over and take out all our aircraft in one accurate strike.
so as for bringing back our Air combat, the skies there would be getting pretty full.
It is all political as well.
Hopefully a different party will be in next time and we may see some changes.
I take it you heard about the deal of the century regards the F16.

[phil82]

Welcome Dav34. Could the Air Combat element be reinstated?
The short answer is yes: NZ can afford it, and would have been capable enough with the F16s, but it would take a huge sea-change of political will to effect that change, and I doubt that is there with either of the two main political parties. NZ has always pulled it's weight internationally, but the current political climate is such that no threat is seen which would require a combat force. Instead they buy army vehicles which can't be transported by air!

It would also require a substantial investment in training and manpower, because most of it left for greener fields.

Personally, I doubt the ACF will ever be reinstated unless there are howls of protest from the Aussies about NZ Defence spending, and that is unlikely.

[beagle]

If for some luck the nats got back in and they decided to reinstate the maachies only, would we still have enought techs and pilots around....
Not all of the strike pilots would have left, there must be some that are in desk jobs and some that have had to go to transport or helo.
We might have some who do instructor courses and the machine revolves from there.
do not really need all of them online at once anyway.
I am pretty sure in saying that the skyhawks will not fly again in this country, except fopr amybe a demonstration flight for a "out of the blue" purchaser but even that is almost non existant.

[Dave Homewood]

I agree that given the right political climate, the RNZAF could be built up to its former strength fairly easily.

Even this current Government has realised they took things too far and have virtualy destroyed the RNZAF. Now they seem to be on the turn around, buying new helicopters, upgrading existing C-130's and P-3's, and serious rumour has it that they are looking at buying more maritime patrol/training aircraft, and also purchasing aircraft for No, 42 Squadron rather than the current lease situation.

Also efforts are being made to restock the depleted personnel levels, though even this is slow to happen. I think the incentive for kids to join left when the ACW disbanded. I mean in all honesty the strike jets did inspire youngsters to join, but without them, what sort of career does it look like with low pay, few opportunities, etc when they compare with the civil aviation sector?

If the RNZAf was suddenly to receive the boost it needs of the Maachis going back into service, or new strike fighters, it will not be too long before that level of interest from potential recruits rose again. You'd see a number of ex-staff return too I think, including pilots. And lets face it, since the 1920's and 1930's NZ's military aviation has suffered ups and downs in Government support. The only time it ever seemed fully funded and supported was WWII. I've been surprised to read lately when looking at the history the RNZAF in the 1950's and 1970's to see unwelcome changes due to budget problems and changes in policy. Rememebr NZ almost wiped out its strike capability in the 1950's when the Mustangs were withdrawn, leaving just two squadrons of jets, one overseas, to defend NZ.

The RNZAF has the ability to weather such losses of capability and when it needs to build up again, it bounces back. And the reason is experience. Everything that is done in the Air Force is written down. There are libraries full of procedures manuals. So even if the top layer of staff are gone and a core staff remains, a bit of training using time tested and true procedures from the past will soon have that core leading a new wave of experts.

The only problem this time is National think like Labour. In fact with other parties like the greens and Jim Anderton's mob, there are not really anyone left in Parliament with half a brain that actually realises the true potential of an Air Force, and the vital roles it plays. Politicians only care about how much money they make now, not about the safety and wellbeing of the country. So for the foreseeable future I fear we won't see any change. By the time any change will come, those procedures manuals will probably have been sold off on TradeMe like the oodles of RNZAF crockery and tools that have been disposed of and dispersed.

Beagle, don't forget the RNZAF still has Woodbourne for the foreseeable future, which is apparently to take a bigger role in the big plan of killing Whenuapai. I think flying training may move there eventually.

[beagle]

admin said:

I agree that given the right political climate, the RNZAF could be built up to its former strength fairly easily.

would have to be a real sunny day...

Even this current Government has realised they took things too far and have virtualy destroyed the RNZAF. Now they seem to be on the turn around, buying new helicopters, upgrading existing C-130's and P-3's,

and serious rumour has it that they are looking at buying more maritime patrol/training aircraft,
?
and also purchasing aircraft for No, 42 Squadron rather than the current lease situation.
From talking to some people, I think the last 2 ideas are all wrapped up in one package, and they are pretty happy with the current agreement, it will be just bigger air craft, either B350's or Q200's

Also efforts are being made to restock the depleted personnel levels, though even this is slow to happen. I think the incentive for kids to join left when the ACW disbanded. I mean in all honesty the strike jets did inspire youngsters to join,
only pilots who wanted to fly jets, and how many was that per year, not more than a few hand fulls.

but without them, what sort of career does it look like with low pay, few opportunities, etc when they compare with the civil aviation sector?
new choppers, refurbished herks, refurbished orions, Upgraded B757s, all able to be flown in situations no commercial airline allows you to fly....
Cheap alcohol at the mess, free dental, free medical

If the RNZAf was suddenly to receive the boost it needs of the Maachis going back into service,
just wait 18 months

or new strike fighters,
yeah right

it will not be too long before that level of interest from potential recruits rose again.
maybe

You'd see a number of ex-staff return too I think,
been too long since they left.

including pilots.
home sick ones

Beagle, don't forget the RNZAF still has Woodbourne for the foreseeable future,
Oh shit, how did I forget that..oops

which is apparently to take a bigger role in the big plan of killing Whenuapai. I think flying training may move there eventually.
There is no money for that, in the foreseeable future, 10 years anyway.
They looked at Woodbourne for flying training when wigram was going to change but terrain weather etc was better at OH.

[Dave Homewood]

I agree that given the right political climate, the RNZAF could be built up to its former strength fairly easily.

would have to be a real sunny day...

Agreed


and serious rumour has it that they are looking at buying more maritime patrol/training aircraft,
?
and also purchasing aircraft for No, 42 Squadron rather than the current lease situation.
From talking to some people, I think the last 2 ideas are all wrapped up in one package, and they are pretty happy with the current agreement, it will be just bigger air craft, either B350's or Q200's

I'm not sure what's going on, I only read stuff here and in NZ Wings, which have said they're looking at Bombardier Dash 8's to do NATTS type work, and also buying their own Super King Airs rather than leasing clapped out ones.

Also efforts are being made to restock the depleted personnel levels, though even this is slow to happen. I think the incentive for kids to join left when the ACW disbanded.

I mean in all honesty the strike jets did inspire youngsters to join,
only pilots who wanted to fly jets, and how many was that per year, not more than a few hand fulls.

Only a few made it through to sit in the A-4, but hundreds applied to the RNZAF each year simply because they wanted to. It's true that the A-4's were an amazing recruiting tool. When I was being recruited i didn't want to be a pilot cos I thought I'd be no good at it, and wanted a ground job.

However almost every guy i joined with had initially gone to the recruiting office because they'd seen the Kiwi Red team at a show and wanted to do that. We discussed this at GSTS. My whole dorm of 16 guys was asked by the Cpl why we initially became interested. 14 from 16 said they'd seen Top Gun and Kiwi Red and thought they could do it. Most had gone as far as PERCEL at Hobsonville and been knocked back there. but by that time the bug had them, they wanted in, and the recruiters told several "become an av geek" or "mech" or whatever and then apply again once you're in. It was a blatant recruitment tool.

I was surprised personally by this revelation about all these mechs wanting to be knucks. After that i asked a lot of other people outof curiosity, and loads and loads had gone the same route. Apply for knuck, not get in but become something else in the RNZAF.

but without them, what sort of career does it look like with low pay, few opportunities, etc when they compare with the civil aviation sector?

new choppers, refurbished herks, refurbished orions, Upgraded B757s, all able to be flown in situations no commercial airline allows you to fly....
Cheap alcohol at the mess, free dental, free medical

There are many more flash choppers and big planes in the civil world that people can fly. Sure, they have to pay for their learning but the pay when they go commercial is better once they work their way up.

I agree the lifestyle is good in some ways, but also very restricting in others, and todays' kids are not so into discipline etc as previous generations. Plus they're not expected to learn properly at school any more so they want to go to polytech or uni and not learn next, rather than learn a decent career.


If the RNZAf was suddenly to receive the boost it needs of the Maachis going back into service,
just wait 18 months

Is that when the new owner takes them to the USA?

or new strike fighters,
yeah right

It could happen. Slim chance, but remain positive.

You'd see a number of ex-staff return too I think,
been too long since they left.

Surely not ALL of them. they're taking back anyone now, there's no upper age limit anymore.

including pilots.
home sick ones

Sure - who wouldn't want to return to this wonderful country, especially with all the foreign currency they're making!

Beagle, don't forget the RNZAF still has Woodbourne for the foreseeable future,
Oh shit, how did I forget that..oops

:-)

which is apparently to take a bigger role in the big plan of killing Whenuapai. I think flying training may move there eventually.
There is no money for that, in the foreseeable future, 10 years anyway.
They looked at Woodbourne for flying training when wigram was going to change but terrain weather etc was better at OH.

Yes, but when labour closes Ohakea as it's not inline with their anti-military policy, then Woody will be the RNZAF.

[steve]

Phil82 is right on the mark from my knowledege. New Zealand is one of the most islolated countries in the world and in the last twenty five years has moved to a a more neutral state status that has been plannned by the political left for some time. The nations populace believe in substantial goverment control and due to our isolation there is general disinterest in foreign affairs and defence. There are two schools of thought:

1. We relegate aour defence efforts to peacekeeping operations and rely on Aus for any serious threats to our Pacific responsibilities or

2. We remain united with Australia in a defence military partnership and contribute a small but effective military component to a Australasian force if the ballon went up.

The RNZAFs strike wing is unlikely to be rebuilt as there is simply no votes in the equation unlike promises of 1000 more police officers. It is quite amazing how our small but gallant military (especially in WW2) has been transformed into a feeble and almost non aligned force in the space of 30 years or so.

That aside I believe some sort of a ANZAC strike wing could be a possibility in the future with a long range air to ground capability....armed C130s or P3s that could support south pacfic "policing" sorties.

[phil]

I agree about the Skyhawks being a good recruiting tool, and I too have talked to guys that said the same thing about wanting to join as knucks and ending up as ground trades. Even those of us that didn't want to be pilots still wanted to work on jets.

As for the points about free medical/dental, not many 18 year olds even consider that a big deal. And cheap alcohol? Thats not so true now, and the if the baggies at Ohakea is anything to go by, not many people bother. Last three times I've been DNCO (two weeknights and a Saturday) there have been only two or three people there to evict, once the bar was even closed already!

[Dave Homewood]

"And cheap alcohol? Thats not so true now"

That's the last straw in the destruction of the RNZAF!

[beagle]

The price must have gone up, was $1.50 a pint in the mess when I left.
phil, the eviction from the baggies, wouldn't be S&S, they were good people.
Yes I have always been in favour of having an ANZAC strike wing, even if we pay towards the upkeep of it, it could even rotate here for 6 months then over there, then again there would be a parts/maintenance issue etc.
As for the people joining up for pilot etc then missing out and going drund crew, pretty sure most of the guys on my recruit course did not even know too much what air craft we had.
As an add on to that, I originally thought there was a Orion in the sky 24 hours of the day doing patrols etc, but after doing a tour on 5 Sqn, it is easy to figure out this could never happen.
So in the new year, the maachies could go, mmm will watch this space.
hey, you know I wasn't have a dig at ya Dave, just a long day at work.
Hope you guys buy Tip Top bread.

[Dave Homewood]

Beags, no, not seens as digging. Interesting debate is how I saw it.

I don't know why we don't invite other countries such as Britain to base aircraft here, so they can use our uncongested airspace and facilities for operational training in return for them to patrol our skies. Other countries do this it seems.

I thought we had an ANZAC Strike Wing now, didn't most of our pilots get permanently posted to the RAAF for this?? :-)

There were certainly a number of aviation enthusiasts in my GSTS dorm. I recall many a long discussion about the RNZAF aircraft and other aircraft in the dorm, the mess, the canteen... most of us had grown up with airshows and other aviation influences. Only a small handful admitted to be ex-snotgoblers.

Tip Top bread? Doesn't that melt if left out of the freezer?

[beagle]

Get the super soft varieties, it melts in your mouth.
No we are not affiliated with tip top ice cream in any way or form.
A pity, as seconds would be great.

[Dave Homewood]

What part do you play in breadmaking Beags?

It's gotta beat working in a smelly paintshop, eh?

[beagle]

admin said:

What part do you play in breadmaking Beags?

It's gotta beat working in a smelly paintshop, eh?

Most things beat working in a smelly paintshop, especially when i was at Wigram and all we had were 2 small extractor fans, which when a good nor wester blew, they would blow the wrong way and all this dust would come back in on everything freshly painted.
Plus in my days, the first course to deal with isocyanate 2 pot paints we did not have in line breathing either.
If I die soon, then the military have got a few questions to answer about that one.
The only good thing about the wigram paintshop in my day (1981/82) was the big fully enclosed rag bin, which was great on a Friday morning to hide and sleep a big hangover off.
Trouble is the guys might not wake you and it gone through the day into night time.

As for the bread making, well, I am in the distribution side of , sort of.
the bread comes out of these machine, all sliced , wrapped and in crates, 12 crates high and a team of us sort it out for the different areas of the south island. First up is Dunedin, always 2 big truck and trailer units,and other major seperate areas such as Timaru, Ashburton, the west Coast, Nelson, Blenheim then all the wee places in between.
We do not do the individual shops for Dunedin, nelson and Blenheim, they are done at depots there, but everything else is done to individual shop orders.
so we hve to know our maths and have strong backs lifting bread crates all day plus wheeling stacks , up to 17 crates high into trucks.
We have 111 different items that we make or distribute, not each shop having then all so takes time, concentration and a few bottles of V.
Also it helps when the sexy ladies from the office come for a work relating visit.....................

[kiwi]

My son joined to work on the A4 , any thing else was not of interest , when these were retired he went to Australia to work on the F18 . Within a year he had been approached to return to the RNZAF , I know as I read the letter . Financially his return is and was a non starter.
Labour is the most right leaning it has ever been and in reality occupies the ground traditionaly home to the Nationals and this is something that National has been completely unable to get its head around , and untill it does find its place again it will remain second .
Our current PM stood and protested as a student at the arrival of the A4s and she has seen over their demise . The A4's should have been offered to our museums as there is no way the Americans will allow their sale for anything other than scrap .
We should never have disbanded our air combat force , we should have joined our Australian friends and bought F18's in some form of joint force .