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Post by phil on Mar 26, 2007 15:03:53 GMT 12
Not just a rumour, it is part of one of the options, they think it wil take a whole year to do the job.
Latest plans talk about keeping 75 sqn (now being used by 3 sqn), and still demolishing 14 sqn.
My Grandfather helped build those hangars.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 26, 2007 15:42:42 GMT 12
I have always thought this Takitini ide was a ludicrous waste of money, but this takes the cake, it really does. What do they intend to replace them with, colorsteel hangars that look prettier but give miles less protection? As Takitini is moving all their eggs into the one basket, as the saying goes, why destroy the most robust part of that basket? Those are bomb proof hangars, built to withstand direct blasts. A tin hangar is not bomb proof and would go up like the hangar in the Battle of Britain film if hit directly and there were aircraft inside.
If they really need new hangars, which they don't as I pointed out earlier as some of the Auckland hangars are designed to be moved, why destroy a concrete hangar into the bargain? Why not use it as a stores building in the interum and keep it in reserve? Why not move the flipping museum into it?
Also why does the helicopter hangar to be built on the museum site need taxi-ways? I don't recall taxi-ways at Hobsonville or Wigram. Where are they going to taxi to, the runway to take off?
The RNZAF has never been lead by such a bunch of idiots as they have today, I'm sure of that. I will guarantee once this farce of closing Whenuapai and Woodbourne is over they'll bitterly regret it as the worst decision in the history of the RNZAF, but it'll be far too late.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 26, 2007 15:50:19 GMT 12
Phil or anyone else at/near Ohakea, will it please be possible for you to pop into the museum and take loads of photos of the exhibits before it's all destroyed, and post them here so we have a reminder at least of what it was like? I haven't been there since 1993 and always wanted to get back there. I won't now sadly.
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Post by skyhawkdon on Mar 26, 2007 17:07:41 GMT 12
I have always thought this Takitini ide was a ludicrous waste of money, but this takes the cake, it really does. What do they intend to replace them with, colorsteel hangars that look prettier but give miles less protection? As Takitini is moving all their eggs into the one basket, as the saying goes, why destroy the most robust part of that basket? Those are bomb proof hangars, built to withstand direct blasts. A tin hangar is not bomb proof and would go up like the hangar in the Battle of Britain film if hit directly and there were aircraft inside. If they really need new hangars, which they don't as I pointed out earlier as some of the Auckland hangars are designed to be moved, why destroy a concrete hangar into the bargain? Why not use it as a stores building in the interum and keep it in reserve? Why not move the flipping museum into it? Also why does the helicopter hangar to be built on the museum site need taxi-ways? I don't recall taxi-ways at Hobsonville or Wigram. Where are they going to taxi to, the runway to take off? The RNZAF has never been lead by such a bunch of idiots as they have today, I'm sure of that. I will guarantee once this farce of closing Whenuapai and Woodbourne is over they'll bitterly regret it as the worst decision in the history of the RNZAF, but it'll be far too late. Dave the concrete hangars at Ohakea and Whenuapai where never designed to be "bomb proof". However they were designed to withstand a near miss from a 250lb bomb, but not a direct hit. I think the problem with them for the future is they are just too small to get a 757 or other large aircraft into and they won't be able to fit all the NH-90's and whatever other helicopters they end up with in Ohakea's existing hangars (including keeping some or all of the Iroquois). And yes they will taxi the NH-90s just like they do the Seasprites, although as we now know the maintenance work planned for the taxiways later this year has nothing to do with the new helicopter hangar. As the newspaper report points out the concrete hangars are effectively heritage buildings - one of the Ohakea hangars has a plaque on it recognising what an engineering feat they were when they were built. Maybe the Historic Places Trust can stop them from pulling them down! However having said all this, personally I do think they need new purpose built hangars - nothing lasts forever and despite all the money spent on re-roofing them, lumps of concrete still fall out onto the aircraft (and people) below. The attached annexes and offices are rabbit warrens that are neither functional or efficient. If we are going to have a modern efficient Air Force (albeit without a strike capability) at least give the guys and girls decent working accommodation I say. As for closing the Ohakea Museum... I think the past museum manager Peter Calkin has summed up the situation with the Museum Trust Board very well. I remember when he was told to close down the Friends of The Ohakea Museum, of which I was a member at the time. Sadly most of the active members were WWII veterans and gradually they passed away or couldn't actively participate any more. We had a meeting in 2002 I think it was and decided to "officially" disband to keep on side with Wigram (in return we were promised that there was no intention to close the Museum and by Wigram taking over would ensure a hangar would be built for the display aircraft etc, etc.). Of course none of this happened and they are now using the excuse of the "poor condition of the buildings and displays" as the excuse to close it! That is all Wigram's doing and no fault of anyone at Ohakea. What really concerns me about this fiasco is the disrespect for the memorial garden which as far as I'm concerned is a graveyard (some former serviceman's ashes are scattered there). If it was a Maori burial site the Air Force would be bending over backwards to accommodate it into their future plans! So much for recognising their own history and "culture"!
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Post by phil on Mar 26, 2007 17:17:26 GMT 12
I will try and get there this weekend.
As for the hangars, they might be used for the big aircraft, but the Ohakea ones have a lot of bracing in them that makes them usnuitable for this. I was at the briefing a few years ago when the officer giving it was asked about the effect of the bracing on the ability to fit the hercs and boeings, and he wasn't even aware that Ohakea hangars had such bracing, he assumed they were identical to Auckland.
These are the same hangars that have recently been fitted with humpty squilion dollar fire deluge systems.
We will need to put 3 and 6 sqn somehwere else, and we do need new hangars for this as none of the old ones will fit the NH90s and the TLUH.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 26, 2007 17:59:38 GMT 12
I didn't realise the Ohakea concrete hangars were needed bracing. That is still no excuse to pull it down. Why not use it for smaller aircraft like the CT/4E or Beech replacement? Or as I suggested, storage. Even as a second gymnasiam. Rather than wreck the historic place. Ohakea has masses of room to expand with new hangars without destroying existing ones at huge costs.
Why do they taxi the helicopters rather than land on the spot on the apron? That seems illogical.
The Historic Places Trust won't have a bar of saving a hangar, they're practically powerless for anything less than a 100 years old. At best they'll make it Class 2 which means the owners have to inform them before they knock it down... Waste of space they are.
I fully agree about the Memorial Garden being a sacred spot. It wasn't there in my day but I know how special such places are to families, etc. The fact that airmen's ashes have been spread there won't mean a jot to the RNZAF though, airmen's ashes have been spread over Whenuapai's airfield too but that won't stop them building homes all over it soon.
Thanks Phil re the photos. Some of the garden would be appreciated too, as I've never seen that.
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Post by Calum on Mar 26, 2007 18:22:33 GMT 12
Why do they taxi the helicopters rather than land on the spot on the apron? That seems illogical. It's a safety thing. Last thing you want is a Helcicopter landing on someone or something Here, even the Squirrel which has hover taxi's from the flight line to the runway to take off. And they generally follow the taxi ways. The Seahawks and Sea Kings always taxi to the runway to take off, and they land on the runways. I agree with Don and Phil re new hangars, no point having a mulit million new airframe and not have a proper facility to house and work on them. But I don't see the reason fro both the big hangars to go. one should be retained for historical purposes as long as it's structuraly sound. In about 1988-90 they put big bracing cables through these 2 hangars and re roofed them with colourbond. Didn't this happen at Whenuapai? I don't think an aerial attack is really a consideration for NZ these days and with modern weapons you don't need to blast throught the roof but just fly a missile in the door.
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Post by skyhawkdon on Mar 27, 2007 7:58:30 GMT 12
The extra bracing in the hangars was needed when they put the new roof on. There was quite a bit of extra steel structure/framing put on the roof to lay the longrun coloursteel onto. They were worried that it might not handle a big earthquake with all the extra weight on top.
The Whenuapai hangars have also been re-roofed but I'm not sure if they did the bracing the same way given the need to park Hercs and Orions in them with their high tails?.
They have certainly spent some big money on those hangars over the last 15 years. As well as the foam deluge system Phil mentioned, they had all new lighting and wiring installed, as well as new concrete floors. That job alone was a huge undertaking as they had to jack hammer out the old floor (it took weeks!) before pouring the new one. Ducted three phase electrical and air distribution systems were installed in the floor with outlets all around the hangar. That little improvement alone made working in them so much better (not having to run long extension cords everwhere). Unfortunately they didn't put in underfloor heating like they did in the AMS hangar!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 28, 2007 12:25:34 GMT 12
More press reports: www.wanganuichronicle.co.nz/localnews/storydisplay.cfm?storyid=3727716&thesection=localnews&thesubsection=&thesecondsubsection=Ohakea RNZAF museum shot down28.03.2007 By COLIN ROWATT THE future for the RNZAF museum at Ohakea, at least in its present form, is… zero. That prospect disappointed Rangitikei and Manawatu civic leaders who met with National RNZAF Museum Trust Board chief executive Therese Angelo yesterday to try to stave off closure of the Ohakea facility. The announcement the Ohakea Museum would shut its doors for good on April 15 came out of the blue, like a Skyhawk at full throttle, just a week ago. There was no consultation with any of the local authorities with an interest in the museum, or with any of the people who were closely involved with the Ohakea Museum project from its inception more than 20 years ago. Yesterday Manawatu District Mayor Ian McKelvie, Palmerston North City Mayor Heather Tanguay and Rangitikei District councillor Jill Strugnell, emerged from the hour-long meeting disappointed and disillusioned. Mr McKelvie described the discussion as “not very helpful”. The trio went into the meeting hopeful of having an opportunity to “have some input” that could persuade the Christchurch-based national trust board to reverse its closure decision. “But that did not eventuate,” he said. Mrs Tanguay said the discussion had been “airy fairy” and she was not at all satisfied with Mrs Angelo’s offer to come back for another discussion later in the year after the museum closed and its artefacts had been removed. “That’s not what the community wants. If everything is packed up and taken away it will never be returned,” she said. Cr Strugnell said it was always difficult dealing with an organisation “at a distance”. She was disappointed that the trust board was hanging its closure decision around the possibility the RNZAF might need the present museum site for future development. An attempt by the deputation to persuade Mrs Angelo to at least delay the closure move until the Air Force’s redevelopment plan was clear, was also unsuccessful. Cr Strugnell said Mrs Angelo had promised to take the concerns expressed yesterday back to her board but there was “no suggestion the museum will not close on the scheduled date.” She said the removal of the Ohakea museum’s artifacts would be “the destruction of any hope for the museum’s future.” _________________________________ And www.radionz.co.nz/news/latest/200703280614/supporters_of_ohakea_museum_ask_for_delay_in_closure Supporters of the Ohakea Air Force Museum have asked its trust board to delay its closure.Radio New Zealand News Posted at 6:15am on 28 Mar 2007 The board announced earlier this month that the museum would be shut because the area is due for major refurbishment. Local mayors met the trust board director on Tuesday to ask for more time to examine alternatives to closure. Chris Torr, from the Friends of the RNZAF museum, says the director agreed to discuss alternatives with the full board. Copyright © 2007 Radio New Zealand
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Post by skyhawkdon on Mar 28, 2007 16:44:31 GMT 12
The whole thing is a PR disaster for the RNZAF Museum and Air Force as a whole The whole Museum Trust Board should be sacked for their incompetence. A classic example of "pressonitis" regardless of the opposition to the decision and not a whiff of common sense being shown. Makes about as much sense as the decision to scrap the ACF and the current anti smacking bill going through parliament!
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Post by flyjoe180 on Mar 29, 2007 8:30:37 GMT 12
There is something very sad and disappointing about a country that is prepared to let its heritage fade away.
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Post by skyhawkdon on Mar 29, 2007 15:26:15 GMT 12
Opposition to the Museum closure is obviously significant and hardening. I am also reliably told that the thoughts and comments on this forum have not gone un-noticed by RNZAF and RNZAF Museum hierarchy. I suggest we ratchet this up a bit more by e-mailing/writing/faxing etc. the following individuals expressing our displeasure. In particular refer to the PR disaster that this is turning into - not only for the RNZAF Museum but also for the RNZAF in general (the saga reflects very poorly on the RNZAF whether they deserve it or not!).
Send you thoughts to any or all of the following:
1. CAS and CDF
2. The Minister Of Defence
3. The Prime Minister (also Minister of Arts and Heritage)
4. The Leaders of all the Opposition parties (I wouldn't bother with the Greens or Jim Anderton though!)
We need to get this raised in Parliament! Ron Mark and Rodney Hide are very pro Defence so I suggest them also.
I am told that the media reporting and questions to date is causing a lot of embarrassment in certain quarters of the RNZAF. I think if we can tweak things a bit more we may be able to defer the closure decision, but we will have to be quick and go right to the top.
Thanks
Don
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Post by phil on Mar 29, 2007 17:28:53 GMT 12
Better do it soon!
Unfortunately I'm not best positioned to email the CAF directly. It's a bit frowned upon.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 29, 2007 20:35:39 GMT 12
It took a little looking but: The Minister of Defence Phil Goff's email is pgoff@ministers.govt.nzThe Minister of Art, Culture and Heritage, Helen Clark's email is pm@ministers.govt.nzThe Minister of Tourism, Damien O'Connor's email is doconnor@ministers.govt.nzThere no longer seems to be a Minister of Veterans Affairs in NZ, though there is a minister of Senior Citizens which it may come under? That is Ruth Dyson at rdyson@ministers.govt.nzThe military commanders emails don't seem to be published. Personally though I originally considered doing so, I now doubt that any of these ministers are worth wasting my time writing to, they won't give a flying jump about it all. The Board has made its mind up and probably for reasons we're not privy to as well as what the media has released. Such things will not be reversed in a hurry. Rememebr the campaigns to save flying training at Wigram and to save the ACF?
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Post by phil on Mar 29, 2007 20:39:16 GMT 12
On a completely different topic entirely, did you know that all NZDF email addresses are in the format: firstname.lastname@nzdf.mil.nz.
Sorry for the completely off topic post.
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Post by phil on Mar 29, 2007 20:40:28 GMT 12
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 29, 2007 20:52:51 GMT 12
Thanks for that, that's the site I was looking at but didn't see Veterans Affairs.
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Post by skyhawkdon on Mar 30, 2007 13:07:49 GMT 12
Thanks for researching those addresses Dave... I didn't have time to yesterday and hoped someone else would Cheers mate! From speaking to certain people yesterday who I can't name here, there is a faint glimmer of hope that this decision could be at least deferred. But we need to continue to make lots of noise - but directed at the right people (see previously posted list .
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Post by sjponeill on Mar 31, 2007 1:27:11 GMT 12
I was also surprised and disappointed to hear of the proposed closure of the Ohakea Museum. While the Wigram museum may be top-notch, it is in the South Island and probably not as accessible as been stated here - if you don't know where it is exactly it is so easy to miss the turn and the location for the turn off SH1 at Sockburn does not lend itself to casual drive-ins - not much we can do about that though.
I do not agree with the comments that the Ohakea Museum is poorly located - I drive past Ohakea regulary and the signs always catch my eye and there is an easily marked and accessible turn off from SH1. That part of the SH1 also catches a lot of tourist trafffic heading north/south to/from the ferries and the scenic hinterland of the North Island e.g. Central Plateau, Rotorua, Taupo etc.
If the Museum has to move and can not be relocated on-base at Ohakea, perhaps we could be looking at some sort of accommodation with the Army Museum in Waiouru (omigod, no, not the Army!!) as it already has a prime location, tourist cafe facilities and space for expansion. Possibly not as palatable as keeping it where it is but surely better than having all the displays disposed of or placed in storage for the forseeable future? AND DEFINITELY BETTER THAN RELOCATING TO NOWRA _ HOW ARE WE MEANT TO KEEP IN TOUCH WITH NZ'S AVIATION HERITAGE IF IT IS IN OZ???
Whatever options people think best, I would strongly advise that all communications be keep civil and professional. A writing campaign is more useful than a petition - people take more notice when the mail bag starts overflowing.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 31, 2007 3:59:31 GMT 12
Welcome to the forum sjponeill. Thanks for a well thought out first post.
My own experience from 2005 going past on SH1, and anticipating that Ohakea was coming up soon, I was past the place before I saw anything indicating the base and Museum. I had been expecting to see the bright shiny Dakota that's no longer there. Maybe it was just me, but I thought it was less obvious than it used to be.
I don't believe that Wigram is easy to miss if you're given the correct location and directions to follow. I mean living there and subsequently visiting ove the years I've always found bus drivers to know exactly where I want to go. Taxi drivers too. It's a well known place. There are also good signposts and of course NZ1050 - if you miss that, you really weren't looking very hard. But of course as the place was home to me for nearly three years I may be biased and some first time visitors may well get confused. They may think Main South Road means SH1, which these days it doesn't. .
Waiouru is certainly an interesting suggestion. I think the Nowra suggestions are slightly better than options of seeing the collection broken up and sold off, or put into storage where no-one can see it. I agree that Waiouru is appropriate as a well established defence museum, but as the collection is about one base/station, I think it'd be better kept in the Manawatu where that base/station is, even if it were at Palmy rather than OH. Surely there must be an empty MQ at Bulls it could move into in the interum before the new visitors centre is built??
I agree, all letters and comments must remain civil and well constructed. I hope my letter to the RNZAF Museum was considered as such. I think on this closure issue they're wrong, but on other matters I fully support their work and philosophies and would hate to have this one emotive issue cloud any future dealings with the museum staff, as my intent was never to criticize but just to voice opinion on this matter.
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