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Post by davidd on Aug 8, 2013 14:54:11 GMT 12
The additional aerial I previously alluded to can be seen atop the fuselage in the photo Dave H posted, saves me a job! This aerial was for the VHF R/T set so far as I know. Additional aerials were added in late 1943 or early 1944, but these do not concern us with respect to the 1943 recreation under discussion; however as somebody may well ask, these included a long aerial mounted under aft fuselage (I call this type a "towel-rail" aerial for obvious reasons) and on a few aircraft an additional radar aerial (Yagi-type) was added under the nose - a homing array (the aft-mounted side aerials also visible in Dave H's photo were "search arrays"). Hope this elaborates sufficiently on my previous posts to answer any hanging questions. The new nose aerial and the under fuselage aft mounted aerial were generally associated with 4 Squadron at Nausori, Fiji, although could also be seen on postwar ASR aircraft and others based at Wigram and Ohakea. David D
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Post by denysjones on Aug 11, 2013 21:50:12 GMT 12
Hi Wally,
I just saw this and the post earlier referring to astro-hatches and astro-domes.
You do know that there are both items fitted one hinges from the stbd side of the aperture and the other hinges from the port. So if you see an interior shot of a Hudson you have a 50-50 chance of seeing one or the other hanging inside the fuselage and the other swung up into the aperture. I imagine you could actually see a shot with both hanging inside of course!
Re the side guns. All the Lockheed docs I've seen suggest that there was one fitted window 3 (counted from the door) fwd of the entry door port side but I've no idea (conclusive) about stbd. In saying that on the std window 1 is opposite the door and the ventral gun bath extends two windows fwd from that to the fwd end of the bath so the first location I'd expect a gun window to be would be window 4 fwd stbd which is is equal to window 3 port.
As an aside I have a window pane with the hole in it for the side gun which someone gave me yonks ago in relation to 2035.
cheers
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 11, 2013 21:59:53 GMT 12
It's interesting how the window with the gun in the photo seems to be open, rather then a special pane. Maybe they were short of panes? Didn't some wartime C-47's also have a few panes fitted with gun portals?
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Post by davidd on Aug 12, 2013 11:14:19 GMT 12
Dave H, All wartime C-47s (and I presume also C-53s) and C-60 Lodestars from a certain point onwards were fitted at the factory with what I think were termed "grommets" in all the cabin windows, each of which contained a blanking plug. If these aircraft were flying in an area in which enemy aircraft might conceivably be encountered, and there were passengers on board experienced in firing rifles, and the rifles were actually available, then the passengers were "encouraged" to have a crack at the enemy (After removing the blanking plugs of course!) Due to the rather poor view available, as only the outer end of the rifle would be in the slipstream, most experienced air gunners expected that any untrained air gunners such as would be aboard would be likely to hit anything, but I think the main aim (NOT a pun!) was to give such passengers something to do with their hands in circumstances when normally they could do nothing but watch their executiuoners approach to slaughter them. In fact on some of the early RNZAF C-47 flights up to Guadalcanal (about JUne 1943, large day light raids), some kind of machine guns were carried aboard as were a couple of trained gunners during that stage when Japanese aircraft around Gudalcanal were not so uncommon. However I believe that they never encountered anything, but is is intersting that the earlier flights to "Cactus" were actually entered as "operational" and were lodged under the care of No. 3 Squadron on that island, which is where they can still be found in Natyinal Archives in Wellington! Also the C-47 captains were supposedly more fightened of these chaps shooting off their own wingtips and ailerons than they were of the Japanese, or so they would have us believe! There was also much talk of fitting sideguns to our PV-1s (the B-34s had fittings incorporated at the factory for beam guns) but in the end the PV-1s went without, and relied on their quite reasonable top speed at low level, which was not that much slower than a Zeke flat at at the same level. Incidentally when the C-47s became DC-3s with NAC in 1947, many of them still had their cabin window "grommets" in place, but they soon disappeared. David D
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Post by davidd on Aug 12, 2013 11:29:08 GMT 12
I also second everything that Denys Jones says about the flip-up and flip-down astrodomes on Hudsons (also ditto on Venturas, Lodestars, etc) - I clearly recall that one fold down "hatch" was just a smooth "blanking" panel to make a smooth upper fuselage, the other one incorporated the astrodome. They were quite strongly constructed, and were clamped into position when swung up; the out-of-favour-at-the-moment opposite item did not just hang in the fuselege - it was provided with a securing clip on the fuselage wall and was thus fairly well out of the way so as not to impeded human progress in the main cabin. I would not be surprised if other American aircraft also used similar alternative hatches with and without astrodomes. Incidentally the "windscreen" clearly visible in the photo that Dave H posted is one of the very few I have seen of this item "in action" - I think this was also a factory-fitted item, but somebody will have to check an IPB to check that this was so. David D
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Post by Andy Wright on Aug 12, 2013 12:11:00 GMT 12
I've got a photo of the Temora Hudson's starboard side showing the cut-out window. My wife spotted it and, at first, we thought it was a trick of the light but zooming in when she was on the ground proved otherwise. I thought I had the photo on Photobucket but it's not there so will have to dig it out tonight.
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Post by davidd on Aug 13, 2013 10:41:32 GMT 12
Something else worth bearing in mind. The RNZAF used Australian-made beam-gun mountings for their Hudsons, after considering manufacturing them in NZ (the Australians sent them a set of engineering drawings); as the Aussies already had them in mass-production for their own aircraft, this was seen as a much more sensible decision, particulalry as time was of the essence. There was also supposed to be a guard fitted outside the window to stop eager beavers from shooting off their own wing and tailtips, but this was not fitted as gunners reckoned it "restricted them too much!" Er, that WAS the idea! See the Airspeed Oxford which had a guard to protect the tail surfaces from the excited madness of the turret gunner - not quite the same as the Hudson setup, but it will give you an idea, manufactured from mild steel tubing I imagine. David D
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 13, 2013 21:05:47 GMT 12
Denys Jones has kindly sent me this photo that he took in the RNZAF Museum's No. 6 Hangar at Wigram many years ago inside the Hudson NZ2084 remains they had there. It looks very much like it could have a Vickers Gun mount fitted to the window. What do you make of this David?
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Post by Calum on Aug 14, 2013 14:19:19 GMT 12
Nice one Wally. Love the paint scheme
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Post by smithy on Aug 14, 2013 14:26:22 GMT 12
I'm with Calum, really interesting and unusual scheme which looks great. Lovely work!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 14, 2013 14:34:41 GMT 12
Here's another photo from Denys taken inside 'his' NZ2035 at Ferrymead. He comments: "The attached photo might also interest. It shows the main cabin of 2035 and clearly the astro hatch blanking panel hangs down on the right (latched as Dave D described) and the hinge brackets for the perspex dome one and it's latch are visible opposite. I'd kill for another hatch frame either a perspex or a solid (which could then easily be made to accommodate perspex)."
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 14, 2013 14:36:07 GMT 12
I must say this has been the most interesting modelling thread in a long while.
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Post by dewobz on Aug 14, 2013 15:04:49 GMT 12
I totally agree Dave. An absolute boon for Hudson modellers and Hudson enthusiasts alike hopefully. I was going to ask what the Vickers gun mounts looked like but probably don't even need to ...? Could I take the protrusion above the main mount to be for locking the gun in a safety or stowage position? Wonderful photos. Cheers Wally.
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Post by steveh on Aug 16, 2013 22:36:30 GMT 12
Looks a bit like Will Shakespeare to me. Steve
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Post by davidd on Aug 19, 2013 10:15:05 GMT 12
Dave H, Yes, that is one of the surviving VGO mounts; NZ2084 was definitely one of the Hudsons which served at Guadalcanal and E/Santo with 3 and 9 Squadrons, but just exactly why these were left in the aircraft is anybody's guess! I would have thought the RNZAF would have stripped them out as soon as they brought these aircraft back to NZ as they were never considered a raging success, and they were not required for service in Fiji or NZ by 1944, for obvious reasons. I was always hoping to see photos of these rare items as I shamefuly failed to get good shots of these mounting before this hulk (NZ2084) was disposed of by sale many years ago. It is possible that some also survive in Australia as they were widely used by that service. A quick check has revealed that 2084 arrived at Henderson Field (Guadalcanal), and flew its first operation from there on 2/4/43 (had previously been with 9 Sqdn at Santo), and spent varying periods flying from both these fields until 30 July when it returned to "Buttons" (E/Santo), although it made one final return trip to "Cactus" on 2/10/43 providing ferry escort for NZ P-40s. It returned to NZ ex E/Santo on 7/10/43 (via Norfolk Island), but I cannot find any record of further service use with RNZAF after this (operational, transport or training); almost certainly it was put into stored reserve (Rukuhia), which might explain the retention (and ultimate survival) of the beam gun mountings. David D
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Post by davidd on Aug 19, 2013 10:37:11 GMT 12
And many thanks to Denys Jones for providing the excellent photos of the Hudson interiors! David D
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