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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 2, 2014 17:35:11 GMT 12
This came up on the Timespanner site on Facebook, and is from the Alexander Turnbull Library who have wrongly labelled it as a Tiger Moth. It looks to me like an Avro Avian but the wheels seem to have been altered to fatter tyres with less diameter, and the exhaust seems to be a field mos. ATL's caption is "Close-up view of a man climbing into a Tiger Moth bi-plane, with spectators behind, Hawke's Bay District ca 1920s-1930s Alexander Turnbull Library, Wellington, New Zealand. natlib.govt.nz/records/29940191"  What is it? Is it an Avian? |
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pvsjetstar
Flight Lieutenant
email: rassie6@optusnet.com.au
Posts: 97
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Post by pvsjetstar on Oct 2, 2014 19:35:04 GMT 12
Dave - Could this possibly be Stanley Gordon White and his DH.60G Moth in 1935?? He lived in Wairoa I think, and would certainly have attracted a lot of attention after his flight in the aircraft from the UK to Sydney that year.
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pvsjetstar
Flight Lieutenant
email: rassie6@optusnet.com.au
Posts: 97
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Post by pvsjetstar on Oct 2, 2014 19:35:21 GMT 12
Dave - Could this possibly be Stanley Gordon White and his DH.60G Moth in 1935?? He lived in Wairoa I think, and would certainly have attracted a lot of attention after his flight in the aircraft from the UK to Sydney that year.
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Post by baz62 on Oct 2, 2014 19:52:41 GMT 12
I think the opinion from James Kightly and Bruce Cooke are it's an Avro Avian. Definitely not a DH product.
EDIT: Oopps I meant Spartan.
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Post by shorty on Oct 2, 2014 20:21:04 GMT 12
I reckon its a Simmonds Spartan . The marking is a big clue. Compare ot to Bob McGarry's one.
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Post by DragonflyDH90 on Oct 2, 2014 20:27:22 GMT 12
Definitely Spartan, not DH.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 2, 2014 23:26:38 GMT 12
Yes Bruce and James confirmed it earlier on Facebook as a Spartan (Baz misquoted them)
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Post by baz62 on Oct 3, 2014 11:50:28 GMT 12
Oops.  |
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Post by Peter Lewis on Oct 3, 2014 18:23:32 GMT 12
My pick, given the Hawkes Bay connection, would be either:
Simmonds Spartan ZK-AAY, c/n 4, with HB&EC AC from Feb30 until going to New Zealand Airways at date unknown.
or
Simmonds Spartan ZK-ABC c/n 48, with HB&EC AC from Mar 1930 until crashed at Taumaranui 22Mar33.
Judging by the headwear, early 1930s.
To the uninitiated, any small biplane is a Tiger Moth and any triplane is a Fokker.
Turnbull is very bad with their captioning. I have considered going down there and spending, say, four or five years correcting their errors.
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Post by errolmartyn on Oct 3, 2014 18:38:28 GMT 12
Turnbull is very bad with their captioning. I have considered going down there and spending, say, four or five years correcting their errors. Peter, A sort of voluntary Errorplane Correction Service? Errol |
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Post by Peter Lewis on Oct 3, 2014 18:54:02 GMT 12
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Post by hairy on Oct 3, 2014 23:22:06 GMT 12
ZK-ABU?  |
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Post by Peter Lewis on Oct 4, 2014 6:39:00 GMT 12
Almost certainly. All the Spartans that got here seemed to have arrived in the same paint scheme. Unless you can actually see the rego, the clues are the location and the background detail. |
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Post by dakman on Oct 4, 2014 6:49:04 GMT 12
Well done Hairy ,
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 4, 2014 10:37:33 GMT 12
The one in Marcus's photo has different wheels.
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Post by davidd on Oct 4, 2014 15:07:39 GMT 12
Yes Dave, the difference between the original skinny wheels and the later Dunlop "Air wheels" as in the first picture. Incidentally the original Simmonds Spartans were blessed with a symmetrical aerofoil section on their mainplanes, and you can sort of see this in the first photo - the curve on the underside leading edge is very noticeable. The later Spartan Arrows had a "normal" aerofoil of which just one example came to New Zealand (ZK-ACQ I think). Many of the original Simmonds Spartans already in NZ were retromodified into a semblance of this by the addition of a modified leading edge - these were known as "Dingilised" Spartans in honour of the local engineer who dreamed up this relatively cheap mod, by the name of Dingle. Apparently this modifed leading edge considerably improved lifting ability and general flying performance. However it would be nice to see a photo of this mod on an actual aircraft - Board members please check your Spartan photos and look for suspicious leading edges.
David D
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Post by Peter Lewis on Oct 4, 2014 15:59:25 GMT 12
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Post by errolmartyn on Oct 4, 2014 18:44:33 GMT 12
Yes Dave, the difference between the original skinny wheels and the later Dunlop "Air wheels" as in the first picture. Incidentally the original Simmonds Spartans were blessed with a symmetrical aerofoil section on their mainplanes, and you can sort of see this in the first photo - the curve on the underside leading edge is very noticeable. The later Spartan Arrows had a "normal" aerofoil of which just one example came to New Zealand (ZK-ACQ I think). Many of the original Simmonds Spartans already in NZ were retromodified into a semblance of this by the addition of a modified leading edge - these were known as "Dingilised" Spartans in honour of the local engineer who dreamed up this relatively cheap mod, by the name of Dingle. Apparently this modifed leading edge considerably improved lifting ability and general flying performance. However it would be nice to see a photo of this mod on an actual aircraft - Board members please check your Spartan photos and look for suspicious leading edges. David D Albert John Dingle held New Zealand Ground Engineer’s Licence No. 44, issued 17 March 1930. His name appears frequently in the interwar pages of ‘New Zealand Wings’, from 1933 on. His first mention was in the March 1933 issue: MR. A. T.[sic] DINGLE. It was with great pleasure that we accepted an invitation to visit the Aircraft Repair and Construction Works of Mr. A. J. Dingle at Clayton Avenue, Wellington. We were astonished at the amount of work which was in hand and the remarkable efficiency of the whole factory. Mr. A. J. Dingle is the holder of the A, B, C, D and X, Ground Engineer's Licenses and is thoroughly competent to handle any aircraft construction or repair work. At present the firm is busily engaged in reconstructing Mr. [Matthew Henry] Oram's 3-seater Spartan (Gipsy II.), and also the metal DH Moth owned by the' Manawatu Club. The staff consists of himself and three expert men and we were greatly impressed by the excellence of his workmanship. All invitation is extended to all Club members to visit his works at any time. A cordial welcome will be accorded them. During WWII he served with the RNZAF as an engineering officer. He died in 1971 at age 85. Errol |
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Post by isc on Nov 4, 2014 21:10:27 GMT 12
As well as the four wings being interchangeable , all arts of the horizontal, and vertical tail plane were identical, and only one was required to fit in any position. Later vertions of the aircraft used a non symmetrical aerofoil for the wings. I think there was a local NZ mod made to the leading edge of the wings to improve the performance. isc
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Post by davidd on Nov 4, 2014 22:33:47 GMT 12
isc,
The "NZ mod" you mention above has already been alluded to on this thread - see post three positions above your own! You are talking about the process of "Dinglisation"! Another part of the interchangeability fetish built into the early Spartans were the left and right undercarriage units, which were also interchangeable, by swapping about bits and pieces. However they took this process too far, thus the attempts to make a half-decent aeroplane out of it.
David D
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