|
Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 8, 2015 9:48:13 GMT 12
Some Official Gen.... MOTAT, the Auckland War Memorial Museum, the Air Force Museum in Christchurch and the Otago Museum are working together to support aviation war veteran, Les Munro to determine if there is a way that his personal wishes can be fulfilled while retaining his precious World War Two medals and memorabilia in their public collections within New Zealand. The museums respect the decision Mr Munro has made to raise funds for the upkeep of the Bomber Command Memorial in London and are currently discussing a number of options to achieve the best outcome for all. Leading these discussions is Mr Michael Frawley, CEO of MOTAT who says, “We have a deep admiration for Mr Munro’s altruistic aims and we hope to work with him to realise these. Our primary goal is that Mr Munro is fully supported throughout this process whatever the outcome may be. The huge contribution Mr Munro, his colleagues and the entire Bomber Command made to World War Two cannot be emphasised enough and our museums will continue to highlight their valour, commitment and sacrifice.” The museums are supported by organisations such as the RSA and NZ Bomber Command Association.
|
|
|
Post by komata on Mar 8, 2015 12:18:14 GMT 12
Thanks Dave; A fantastic response. Hopefully it will be successful. IF the bid does succeed, any thoughts as to where the medals etc. should reside? Wigram? Because SQN Munro is 'Air force'? MOTAT? Because they are 'leading the campaign'? Otago Museum? Because? (not sure of the connection - perhaps someone else can fill-in the reason for their involvement).
And then, of course there is the 'Waikato' effort....
It will be interesting to see who comes out on top of all this - and where the medals finally reside (assuming a 'Kiwi' bid is successful).
Any 'updates' would be appreciated (and from anyone else as well, BTW).
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 8, 2015 19:37:06 GMT 12
MOTAT is the perfect choice in my opinion, since the National Bomber Command Museum is based there.
|
|
|
Post by komata on Mar 8, 2015 20:28:23 GMT 12
Thank you Dave; MOTAT would seem to be the obvious (and arguably the best) choice, especially as it is the home of the BC Museum.
A thought though: The Auckland War Memorial Museum (AWMM) is conspicuous by its absence in all this, a fact which surprises me somewhat given its title and its 'Objectives' as detailed in the Auckland War Memorial Museum Act, 1996.1 The relevant section appears below. Note especially 11(a) and 11(c).2
--------------------------------------------------------------------
11 Objectives
In carrying out its functions under section 12, the Board shall recognise and provide for, in such manner as it considers appropriate, the following:
(a)the recording and presentation of the history and environment of the Auckland Region, New Zealand, the South Pacific and, in more general terms, the rest of the world:
(b)conservation of the heritage of the Museum, and of global resources:
(c)the role of the Museum as a war memorial:
(d)celebration of the rich cultural diversity of the Auckland Region and its people:
(e)education which involves and entertains people to enrich their lives and promote the well-being of society:
(f)the advancement and promotion of cultural and scientific scholarship and research:
(g)achievement of customer satisfaction by consultation, responsiveness, and continuous improvement:
(h)leadership through professionalism, innovation, and co-ordination of effort with relevant organisations:
(i)greater financial self-sufficiency through the prudent operation of compatible revenue-producing and fund-raising activities which supplement public funding:
(j)providing maximum community benefit from the resources available.
----------------------------------------------------
Given the criteria established in sections 11 (a) and 11 (c), which I have quoted above (to say nothing of 11 (e) and 11 (f)), the AWMM's apparent 'deafening silence' on this matter is surprising and would seem to indicate that in fact it now sees its role as 'custodian of what already is' rather than seeking to acquire important 'relics' / 'items' (such as medals) relating to the various conflicts which it is'memorialising'. It almost seems indifferent to the matter of SQN Munro's medals (despite their falling within the criteria of 11 (c)) and even if that was a reason to not become involved, one would have thought that the fact that these medals belong to someone resident in the 'Auckland region' (which includes Tauranga) and as such falls within the criteria established in 11 (a), would have been reason enough to at least give the matter serious consideration and, if nothing else, issue some statement concerning it.
Yet, to date, AFAIK, nothing has been heard.
Can anyone advise if this perception of 'disinterest' is in fact correct, and, if it is (given the criteria previously referred-to) , why that should be?
Thanks.
_______________________
1 [n.a.], 'Auckland War Memorial Museum Act 1996', 4, (New Zealand, 1996). 2 [n.a.], 'Auckland War Memorial Museum Act 1996', 4, (New Zealand, 1996), [n.p.n.].
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 8, 2015 21:40:30 GMT 12
I know for a fact they have not been absent in the discussions.
|
|
|
Post by pjw4118 on Mar 9, 2015 14:08:22 GMT 12
I can say that the AWMM is part of the Museum consortium involved , Otago because of its strong NZ History Dept, plus the Air Force Museum. The idea is that the medals would form part of a special Les Munro / Dambusters display that "toured" the main and regional museums. At this stage there has been interest world wide and our Ministry of Heritage and Culture are looking at it.
Regardless of who the ultimate owner is , the BC Memorial will benefit ,. Les has spent a lifetime in service to NZ , after his Air Force days he spent many years in State Advances working on rehab loans for ex servicemen , then as Mayor of Te Kuiti , as Mayor of the King Country Regional Council, then latterly as a benefactor to a host of veteran and aviation causes including Classic Flyers. So this move to benefit the Memorial from the sale of his medals and logbook are entirely in keeping with his generosity and a very worthy legacy.
Please remember the man , he earned these awards by his deeds and it is fitting that he is still able to decide on their future . There would be no complaints if a sibling was bequeathed them and kept them locked in a top drawer , never to be seen. It seems to me to be about being sold overseas when " they are ours". Ladies and gentlemen they are NOT YOURS .
|
|
|
Post by rayo on Mar 9, 2015 14:31:33 GMT 12
Les was the Mayor of Waitomo, which is in the King Country, not the Waikato. And he lives in the Bay of Plenty, not the Waikato. But a worthy cause none the less. Lets hope the various groups just focus on having enough (combined) for the winning bid to be in NZ. So Pooling of the resources would be the best bet and surely SHARING between the contributing museums would be the way forward so the majority of New Zealanders get access to them from time to time.
|
|
|
Post by Mustang51 on Mar 11, 2015 10:51:55 GMT 12
Can someone provide me with the details of the fund being set up and where I may contribute to this fantastic cause.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 12, 2015 17:29:48 GMT 12
www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11416149Munro's medal auction to go aheadBy Brooke Bath - Bay of Plenty Times 6:08 PM Thursday Mar 12, 2015 The overseas auction of war hero Les Munro's World War II memorabilia is set to carry on after the Ministry of Culture and Heritage found Mr Munro's medals and log books are not protected New Zealand archives. Mr Munro's war objects are not covered by the Protected Objects Act 1975, David Butts, Manager Heritage Operations Ministry for Culture and Heritage said in a release today. "We have spoken with Mr Munro and were pleased to share this information with him, and to note no further action by the Ministry is required. "Mr Munro's medals are at a London auction house for auction on 25 March and we wanted to clarify the situation before then. "Mr Munro has put his medals and log books into the auction to raise money for the upkeep of the Bomber Command Memorial - the war memorial commemorating the 55,573 airmen of Bomber Command who died during World War II. "We have assured Mr Munro we respect this decision, and his generosity. Our finding in no way diminishes our respect for the significance of the medals earned by Mr Munro. These are important taonga in their own right," Mr Munro medals include the Distinguished Services Order, Distinguished Flying Cross, Companion of the New Zealand Order of Merit and the Queen's Service Order. The medals are expected to sell for about $100,000.
|
|
|
Post by keroburner on Mar 12, 2015 19:19:43 GMT 12
I wonder what, if any, effect all this publicity will have on the hammer price now? I guess we'll never know. On one hand I guess more potential kiwi buyers/institutions know about them now, and on the other hand, any foreign buyers may now see they'll have a battle on the way to win. It would be great if it put some overseas buyers off them The auction house will be loving the free publicity I bet too. Thoughts? Sent from my GT-I8190T using proboards
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 15, 2015 8:00:31 GMT 12
NZ likely to lose medalsBy Jane Nixon 5:00 AM Sunday Mar 15, 2015 WW2 war hero, Les Munro. Photo / Bay of Plenty TimesA last effort to keep in New Zealand medals earned by war hero Les Munro appears to have failed. The medals - including the Distinguished Service Order and the Distinguished Flying Cross - will go under the hammer at London's Dix Noonan Webb this month as Munro planned, and are expected to sell for up to $100,000. Munro, 95, is the sole survivor of pilots who attacked German dams in World War II, later immortalised in the film The Dam Busters. He put his medals up for auction to raise money for the upkeep of the Bomber Command Memorial in London that commemorates his comrades who were killed. The Ministry for Culture and Heritage here had sought expert advice on whether the medals were covered by the Protected Objects Act 1975, which would mean they required approval for export if sold to a non-New Zealand buyer. That advice confirmed they were not covered by the act. Several New Zealand museums, including MOTAT, the Auckland War Memorial Museum, the Airforce Museum in Christchurch and the Otago Museum, tried to put together a financial package to secure the medals, but Munro has rejected that. "They will all have the opportunity of bidding at the auction," he said. "I made a decision months ago and they are already catalogued for sale. [The medals] are already in possession of the auction house in London." The auction will be on March 25. - Herald on Sunday By Jane Nixon EmailPrint
|
|
|
Post by pjw4118 on Mar 15, 2015 12:17:16 GMT 12
I can confirm that a substantial offer from the Museum group led by MOTATS Michael Frawley was made to purchase the medal set and logbooks prior to auction. They are not able to participate in an open auction as a group. Les feels strongly that they should go to auction to command the best international price and obtain the maximum benefit for the RAFBF ( the BC Memorials caretaker ). If a private benefactor were to buy them and donate them back , concern by Museums over their security and conservators concern about preserving the fabric and paper would probably mean the actual items would rarely be seen on display. But never fear as the proposed 617 display at MOTAT will contian a replica medal set and duplicate logbook from Les along with items from the other Kiwis who served on 617 and the other raids the squadron undertook.
|
|
|
Post by Mustang51 on Mar 16, 2015 13:31:12 GMT 12
So is there a bid being made and if so where may I donate?
|
|
|
Post by pjw4118 on Mar 17, 2015 10:34:42 GMT 12
Thanks for the offer , but the bid/offer is being made by a benefactor . However , donations are always very much appreciated by the NZBCA to support its veteran activities.
|
|
|
Post by fwx on Mar 17, 2015 14:30:44 GMT 12
$150k offer to keep Dambuster medals in NZNZ Herald 2:11 PM Tuesday Mar 17, 2015 A solution may have been found to keeping veteran "Dambuster" Les Munro's medals in New Zealand. Lord Michael Ashcroft has offered to donate $150,000 to the upkeep of London's Bomber Command Memorial if Mr Munro withdraws his medals from auction. Philanthropist Lord Ashcroft will donate GPB75,000 to the Royal Air Force Benevolent Fund, which looks after the memorial, in return for Mr Munro donating his medals to the Museum of Transport and Technology (MOTAT) in Auckland. MOTAT has offered to cover the auctioneer's fees and out of pocket expenses. Mr Munro's awards, including the Distinguished Service Order and Distinguished Flying Cross, were expected to fetch between $80,000 and $100,000 at auction. The 95-year-old veteran had put the medals up to be auctioned on March 25 to raise money for the upkeep of the memorial, which commemorates his fallen comrades. A consortium of New Zealand museums had been in talks with Mr Munro to find a way to keep the medals in New Zealand, but yesterday said they could not bid as a consortium, and did not have the resources to do so individually. Lord Ashcroft donated more than $2 million to build the Bomber Command Memorial, which commemorates the airmen who died while flying with the Bomber Command, known as the "Dambusters", during World War Two. His proposal has the support of the NZ Bomber Command Association, and if successful, MOTAT will develop a travelling exhibition on the history of the Bomber Command. He has also offered to personally collect the medals from the auction house in London and fly them to New Zealand. Lord Ashcroft is a philanthropist and businessman who founded Crimestoppers UK and helped set up a similar service in New Zealand. In 2007 he offered a reward of $200,000 for the return of the medals stolen rom the Waiouru Army Museum. www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11418643If it works out, this would be a brilliant outcome!
|
|
|
Post by machpants on Mar 18, 2015 6:47:47 GMT 12
But I think Les wants to get the maximum for the Memorial, will he get more if it goes to auction? If so I think he will still go ahead with the auction. But it is great to see the issue is receiving headline inches!
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 18, 2015 9:08:57 GMT 12
The original expected estimate was around $100,000 (50,000 quid). So the $150,000 offered is a very good offer, and it means that they items do not disappear into a private collection to never be seen again, and a very important museum collection would benefit without any cost to the museum, or the NZBCA, or the other museums and groups that were prepared to dip in. I personally don't think a better offer could be made. Lord Ashcroft is a true gent. I hope Les sees it that way too.
Also the publicity surrounding this has heightened awareness of the need to continue to raise money for the Bomber Command Memorial and I understand this has already been beneficial with donations directly to the RAFBF for this now coming in regardless of the auction. So basically, job done, and very well done indeed.
|
|
|
Post by errolmartyn on Mar 18, 2015 13:51:28 GMT 12
But I think Les wants to get the maximum for the Memorial, will he get more if it goes to auction? If so I think he will still go ahead with the auction. But it is great to see the issue is receiving headline inches! Something to keep in mind re auctions. It's the auction houses that make the real money!: The art world can be confusing. Even at the auction houses, which are the most transparent parts of the market, numbers are not always what they seem.Enter GAVEL (Generate Auction Valuation Extra Levy), a new tool to help sort out what’s actually going on. GAVEL is, at heart, a simple conversion calculator. It’s much like a currency converter, say, or a centigrade-to-fahrenheit converter. Except this tool converts auction hammer prices into real money, and back again.Imagine that you’re bidding on a piece at Sotheby’s in New York. The bidding is fast and furious: $5,000! $6,000! $7,000! You raise your paddle, make an $8,000 bid — and win. Congratulations! You’ve just bought the artwork for $8,000, right? Wrong. In fact, you’ve just bought the artwork for $10,000. Even though everybody in the room hears the auctioneer announce that the piece has “SOLD for $8,000″, once the auction is over, Sotheby’s will tack on a 25% “buyer’s premium,” which adds another $2,000 to the price. So if you’re bidding at auction, keep GAVEL handy: it will tell you immediately how much you’re really bidding when you get caught up in the thrill of the chase. And when looking at how much other pieces have sold for, you can quickly figure out what the hammer price converts to. A big Warhol gets hammered down for $76 million? That’s $85.3 million in real money. GAVEL works the other way, too. Let’s say a Sotheby’s press release is reporting that a painting by Jacob Ochtervelt sold for $4,421,000, above its estimate of $3-4 million. Just plug that sale price into GAVEL, and you’ll discover that the painting was actually hammered down for $3.8 million: well within the estimate. Maybe that same release reports that a François Boucher fetched $2,405,000, right in the middle of its $2-3 million estimate: again, GAVEL will reveal that the hammer price was actually a flat $2 million, barely at the bottom of the range. (Auction house estimates are always for the hammer price, not the total price paid.) (http://fusion.net/story/18599/introducing-gavel-the-auction-calculator/) Errol
|
|
|
Post by pjw4118 on Mar 18, 2015 14:57:19 GMT 12
Yes Errol , quite right and thats the buyers commission. The buyer may also then have to pay VAT or GST on top. Theres also the sellers commission , another 10 to 20 % plus perhaps cataloque listing fees etc, so the big auction houses do very well out of every sale. Thats why they do not like private offers like Lord Ashcrofts appearing in the market place.
We showed Lord Ashcroft through the Lancaster on Monday and like all our other visitors he enjoyed being in the pilots seat, and posing for the compulsory photo session
|
|
|
Post by machpants on Mar 19, 2015 7:06:22 GMT 12
But I think Les wants to get the maximum for the Memorial, will he get more if it goes to auction? If so I think he will still go ahead with the auction. But it is great to see the issue is receiving headline inches! Something to keep in mind re auctions. It's the auction houses that make the real money!: Errol It's always in the fine print!
|
|