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Post by thelensofhistory on Mar 29, 2016 19:33:59 GMT 12
Sorry if this has been posted already. The Defence Force is set to ask the government for approval to upgrade the submarine detection systems on its Orion planes.Boeing has been chosen as the preferred tenderer if the upgrade, which will cost tens of millions of dollars, goes ahead. The current underwater intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance systems are 50 years old, the same age as the P-3K2 Orion planes themselves. Despite the former Labour government deciding not to upgrade the anti-submarine warfare systems more than a decade ago, the matter is back before the government.The Ministry of Defence's outgoing deputy director of acquisitions, Des Ashton, said the current equipment was past its use-by date. Defence spending was a matter of priorities and he expected a decision in the next few months. "The strategic assessment that was carried out in the 2010 White Paper identified that this was a requirement that we needed to have. "The old equipment has outlived its day and the new equipment that's available is far more capable and matches contemporary threats." Defence Minister Gerry Brownlee declined to comment until a proposal was presented to him to take to Cabinet. But Labour Party's defence spokesman Phil Goff said he didn't believe the upgrade was necessary. "I suspect that the reason that the government is going ahead is because they have been asked to go ahead by allied countries rather than our own evaluation."Victoria University professor of strategic studies Robert Ayson said the upgrade was necessary. "The South Pacific is not a heavy submarine area but New Zealand also operates further afield." China and other Southeast Asian nations were increasing their underwater capabilities, he said. The next Defence White Paper is due to be released later this month and will include updated plans to replace key defence assets, including the Orion planes. www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/298361/defence-force-eyes-new-submarine-spotters |
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Post by thelensofhistory on Mar 29, 2016 19:41:07 GMT 12
I don't know where to start. Goff is off his tree as usual. Upgrading 50 year old aircraft hmm .. Kicking the can down the road as usual so the bill for the replacement of the Orion's is made by another government.
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Post by hbpencil on Mar 29, 2016 21:06:06 GMT 12
The next Defence White Paper is due to be released later this month and will include updated plans to replace key defence assets, including the Orion planes. I can't find where I read it but, IIRC, the plan is to spend 11 billion on new gear for the NZDF over the next decade and part of that will be for replacing the Orions. If that's the case, it does seem a bit odd to spend "tens of millions" to upgrade the Orions if they might not be around for much longer. |
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Post by thelensofhistory on Mar 29, 2016 21:19:40 GMT 12
At any rate it is highly dicey the way their is no keenness to even bring the purchases forward given the various goings on in Asia. If something does happen in Asia the NZDF could well be left to face the situation with obsolete equipment.
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Post by baronbeeza on Mar 29, 2016 22:22:02 GMT 12
It is interesting seeing Des Ashton's name there. Many will be familiar with Des as he has been around a while and was one very, very smart cookie. If anyone thinks they know what they are talking about then this guy would have to put them to shame. While Phil was doing his thing with the Vietnam vets this other guy was a RNZAF Engineering Officer having an exceptional run. He did a wings course and I believe may have even gone on to do a Skyhawk conversion as an Engineer. Some here will remember him from Safe Air also. www.stuff.co.nz/marlborough-express/618133/Ashton-wins-key-defence-ministry-rolewww.janes.com/article/57487/new-zealand-reorganises-defence-procurement-divisionThese guys are no slouches and would be head and shoulders above the politicians in both knowledge and abilities. Anyone that has Westport North School on their Linked-In profile has nothing to hide and means business. The new guy has been around the traps also so I doubt these guys would stand too much getting pushed around. |
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Post by frankly on Mar 29, 2016 23:04:16 GMT 12
The next Defence White Paper is due to be released later this month and will include updated plans to replace key defence assets, including the Orion planes. I can't find where I read it but, IIRC, the plan is to spend 11 billion on new gear for the NZDF over the next decade and part of that will be for replacing the Orions. If that's the case, it does seem a bit odd to spend "tens of millions" to upgrade the Orions if they might not be around for much longer. Most of that sort of info is in the various "Corporate" documents on the NZDF and MoD websites. This page says the P-3 will be in service until approximately 2025. Don't get too hung up on the basic platform either. The P3-K2 has the same basic optical turret as the brand new P-8 (Wescam MX-20). |
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Post by pepe on Mar 30, 2016 9:04:16 GMT 12
I can't find where I read it but, IIRC, the plan is to spend 11 billion on new gear for the NZDF over the next decade and part of that will be for replacing the Orions. If that's the case, it does seem a bit odd to spend "tens of millions" to upgrade the Orions if they might not be around for much longer. Most of that sort of info is in the various "Corporate" documents on the NZDF and MoD websites. This page says the P-3 will be in service until approximately 2025. Don't get too hung up on the basic platform either. The P3-K2 has the same basic optical turret as the brand new P-8 (Wescam MX-20). Yes, Boeing is the preferred supplier for this upgrade as well. The ability to transfer systems/components through to new platforms is now a key selling point. |
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Post by 30sqnatc on Mar 30, 2016 12:06:26 GMT 12
These guys are no slouches and would be head and shoulders above the politicians in both knowledge and abilities. Anyone that has Westport North School on their Linked-In profile has nothing to hide and means business. The new guy has been around the traps also so I doubt these guys would stand too much getting pushed around. Being smarter than your boss is not away good thing. As a public servant you can only advise the politicians. They have the final decision. |
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Post by isc on Mar 30, 2016 20:05:25 GMT 12
The idea is to advise the boss, making him think it was his idea. isc
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Post by pepe on Mar 30, 2016 20:17:44 GMT 12
The idea is to advise the boss, making him think it was his idea. isc "Yes, Minister......"  |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 31, 2016 19:16:18 GMT 12
I wonder what percentage of that $11 Billion will be wasted... er sorry... spent on ships?
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Post by isc on Mar 31, 2016 19:17:35 GMT 12
Pepe, Quite! isc
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Post by thelensofhistory on Mar 31, 2016 19:34:34 GMT 12
I wonder what percentage of that $11 Billion will be wasted... er sorry... spent on ships? During WW2 the Pacific Theater saw the relationship between Sea and Air Power defined. The basically problem is how weak the RNZAF is minus the air strike/air cover capabilities and the RNZN is short on combat power. Eventually events in New Zealand's backyard will bring this to the forefront. At that point I would see Goff , Key e.t.c explain their loony stances. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 31, 2016 19:39:36 GMT 12
The RNZN has been short on combat power since the 1960's and it will never regain what it once had. They'd be better off ditching the pointless frigates and getting another ship like Canterbury that actually comes in useful, and some smaller faster craft for chasing down poachers, etc.
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Post by skyhawkdon on Mar 31, 2016 19:42:54 GMT 12
There is a reason Goff is in opposition and not Government! The P-3s will be around for a long while yet. Money well spend given what is brewing in the South China Sea.
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Post by beagle on Mar 31, 2016 21:12:34 GMT 12
It is interesting seeing Des Ashton's name there. Many will be familiar with Des as he has been around a while and was one very, very smart cookie. If anyone thinks they know what they are talking about then this guy would have to put them to shame. While Phil was doing his thing with the Vietnam vets this other guy was a RNZAF Engineering Officer having an exceptional run. He did a wings course and I believe may have even gone on to do a Skyhawk conversion as an Engineer. Some here will remember him from Safe Air also. www.stuff.co.nz/marlborough-express/618133/Ashton-wins-key-defence-ministry-rolewww.janes.com/article/57487/new-zealand-reorganises-defence-procurement-divisionThese guys are no slouches and would be head and shoulders above the politicians in both knowledge and abilities. Anyone that has Westport North School on their Linked-In profile has nothing to hide and means business. The new guy has been around the traps also so I doubt these guys would stand too much getting pushed around. he took me for a flight in the airtourer at Woodbourne back in the mid 80's. I was hungover to the max and all he wanted to do was an hour of aerobatics. sobered me up, esp when he gave me the controls. |
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Post by thelensofhistory on Apr 1, 2016 11:49:07 GMT 12
The RNZN has been short on combat power since the 1960's and it will never regain what it once had. They'd be better off ditching the pointless frigates and getting another ship like Canterbury that actually comes in useful, and some smaller faster craft for chasing down poachers, etc. Good luck using a vessel like HMNZS Canterbury on convoy duty in the event the oil tanker destine for NZ needs escorting. The problem is NZ political leaders won't take note of Air and Sea power until fuel pumps go empty. |
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Post by madmac on Apr 1, 2016 12:54:06 GMT 12
"convoy duty" didn't we discover in WWII that keeping the fighters tied to the bombers was highly ineffective, and it is likely to be much the same with ships now.
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Post by suthg on Apr 1, 2016 13:23:10 GMT 12
It may be more about piracy than outright attack of a supply ship of oil... or, perhaps a combination of a Frigate and an NH90 would be more effective as escort duty?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 1, 2016 13:49:22 GMT 12
Do oil tankers require escort from frigates at the moment? If so, why? And if that is the case why could the smaller patrol craft I suggested not do it??
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