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Post by baronbeeza on May 11, 2016 14:02:57 GMT 12
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Post by baz62 on May 11, 2016 14:23:49 GMT 12
Christ you would be screwed if that was at altitude. Wonder what vintage? The Cherokee 140 I fly is from the 1970s and has a lot of hours on her as she has always been used for training from new. Is this something that would ever be inspected for cracking? I'd be picking it would be a major job to get this removed for inspection?
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Post by Peter Lewis on May 11, 2016 17:29:15 GMT 12
That'd really make your day.
Somewhere around on the net there is a video of someone carrying out an approach and landing in a 172 without touching the control yoke, and a recomendation that you should try this just in case you encounter a similar problem. Admitedly he started from a couple of thousand feet up.
Rudder turns and controlling pitch by means of the trim.
I think he did a flapless on quite a long runway.
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Post by baronbeeza on May 11, 2016 19:12:53 GMT 12
I think we have to ask the question, "What would cause that kind of stress on that particular weld" ?
I doubt very much that the control column has load on it during flight and maneuvering, most Cherokees aren't thrown about like a fighter.
What if the seatbelt was used as a gust lock, threaded about the yoke handgrip and it was hoicked back hard, - like really hard....
I think any gust loads would have to be from the rear but naturally that is hard on any aircraft.
It is a pretty drastic failure but if it happened at the right time and place you would probably work out other options to regain control of the machine.
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Post by baz62 on May 11, 2016 20:59:47 GMT 12
I was telling Teresa about this and said what you mentioned Peter about using rudder and trim for control so yes if you were careful and hopefully on a relatively calm day that could work.
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Post by FlyingKiwi on May 12, 2016 15:05:47 GMT 12
I'm regularly instructing in a Cherokee 140 of early 1960s vintage, would be nice to know exactly what model was involved in this!
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Post by baronbeeza on May 12, 2016 17:15:14 GMT 12
I think it is more of a case of mistreatment than any sort of aging issue. I inspect many types of aircraft and I wouldn't normally be expecting to see cracking up in that area.
It probably has a lot more to do with how often the machine has been parked outside with the controls held back with the seat belts than much else.
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Post by isc on May 13, 2016 0:04:30 GMT 12
One place I remember similar sort of cracking was on the rudder peddles on the C-188 Agwagons not long after they arrived in NZ, I got the job of making the little reinforcing strips. Even got the sketch of it in a note book: A188 Rudder Bars CAA Cess 88/110. I think by the number I made, it must have been for at least all of Rurals aircraft. A similar mod may be required for the Cherokee control column. it would be just a little strip of 4130 in a U shape and welded in place. isc
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Post by johnnyfalcon on May 13, 2016 7:41:10 GMT 12
Weren't there similar incidents with the C172? I remember at least one that happened during taxi before takeoff. I think this was around the time Cessna issued the Supplementary Inspection bulletin
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Post by madmax on May 13, 2016 10:36:13 GMT 12
During the 1950s Wellington Aero Club Auster ZK-AXM crashed near Pirinoa in the Wairarapa with the loss of ( I think) 4 lives. The investigation into the crash revealed it was caused by loss of control after a weld failure of the control column when it was overloaded following elevator flutter when the elevator trim control cable failed
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Post by errolmartyn on May 13, 2016 14:02:17 GMT 12
During the 1950s Wellington Aero Club Auster ZK-AXM crashed near Pirinoa in the Wairarapa with the loss of ( I think) 4 lives. The investigation into the crash revealed it was caused by loss of control after a weld failure of the control column when it was overloaded following elevator flutter when the elevator trim control cable failed The date was 13 Jan 56. The pilot and his two passengers who were ships crew from the Rangitane and Hertford then berthed at Wellington were all killed. Errol |
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Post by The Red Baron on May 13, 2016 16:06:27 GMT 12
AXM's control column did fail,but it was caused by another catalogue of events preceding it and dodgy welding. Last bit of the report....  |
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Post by madmax on May 13, 2016 23:23:08 GMT 12
Hello Red Baron, That explains it fully. I was going from memory having not sighted the report for many, many years. Good to see you have a copy of it. Do you by any chance have the report on the fatal accident of DH82 ZK-AIM which crashed at Swannanoa 3/3/51. I've been after a copy for years!
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Post by baronbeeza on May 22, 2016 14:35:40 GMT 12
This is a post from one of the Cherokee owners' forums.
Some of the older Cherokee's have a boss at the panel and a corresponding hole in the sliding column much like we see in many Cessnas.
The idea is a shaped pin arrangement with a big red paddle can be inserted which then completely covers the ignition switch also.
The same thread had this as an earlier post.
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tpal
Leading Aircraftman
Posts: 2 
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Post by tpal on Jun 4, 2016 17:12:19 GMT 12
Good Evening from Canada. Your web-site and topic thread was brought to my attention this evening. I am glad this incident (Feb 13th, 2016) is now beginning to generate some interest and discussion. After 3000 flight hours with approximately 2600 as flight instructor on Cherokee and Cessna aircraft, I feel both my student and myself are most fortunate to have the control column failure occur over the runway on approach. The failure was unexpected with instant results. Fortunately we were able to continue with a successful landing without any damage to the aicraft. It was only after taxiing back to the hangar and examining behind the instrument panel did both the magnitude of the failure become apparent and the gravity of the situation. The Canadian CADOR (Canadian Aviation Daily Occurence Report) incident number, for those that are interested is, 2016C0338. The aircraft in question had accumulated 21,000 hours. The second aircraft which had the T-Bar control column removed and subjected to Non-Destructive Testing (NDT) through Magnetic Particle Imaging had 18,000 hours. As I am not an engineer I can not state with any certainty exactly "why" the column failed. However, as both Cherokee's, which were built in the mid 1970's had spent most of their lives in a training environment, they had accumulated thousands of hours of "attitude" correction on the control column from instructors. such continuous correction torque on the t-Bar through out the years may have created metal fatique. As the aircrafts were housed primarily within a hangar and brought out onto the apron for its daily flight, "seat belt" torque from securing the control column would in all probability not factor in the failure. The purpose of my posts on various web sites within Canada was to provide owners and pilots of Cherokees with a, "heads up" as to the incident in question and the fact that "cracks" had been found in another Cherokee T-Bar. Due to the ubiquitous nature of this aircraft, it is important that this message reachs as many Cherokee operators as possible. I read with interest a post suggesting "abuse" was a factor in this incident. I can not speak for the operation of the aircraft further back than 2011 when I began training on the aircraft. From that date forward I can state that I am unaware of any abuse of the aicraft since 2011. As for attempting an approach without elevator control through trim, it might work on straight and level unaccelerated flight, but remember because the horizontal bar detached from the vertical control post, it also equates to the loss of aileron control as well. So that leaves you only trim and rudder to bring the aicraft in on a stabilized approach. for which you would want sufficient altitude to sort things out. Such a failure during flight training maneuvers or in the circuit in all probability would not provide the poor pilot sufficient time to sort things out. As all Cherokees are pretty well 40 years old, I encourage any owner who's aircraft has been used in a training environment and accumulated a substantial number of hours to get the T-Bar control column inspected through NDT. Hope this helps, even just a bit. Fly Safe Gang....... Tom Larkin, Winnipeg, Manitoba.
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Post by suthg on Jun 4, 2016 19:52:28 GMT 12
Well done sir - thank you for sharing, I'm glad you had a successful landing truly dead stick! Very lucky indeed.
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