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Post by ZacYates on Nov 9, 2017 10:57:50 GMT 12
Hi all, While doing a bit of reading I've noticed the way ranks are abbreviated and written, SQNLDR and FLGOFF for example. I think I first noticed it in air force press releases and in the Air Force News. Purely out of curiosity, when did this become the norm for the RNZAF? What was it before - S/L and F/O?
Also, what was the hierarchy of a standard RNZAF squadron during the late 1980s, such as 75? What rank would the CO be, how many pilots below him and of what rank?
Just some mindless research for a slow Thursday.
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Post by SEAN on Nov 9, 2017 12:11:41 GMT 12
This is out of an RNZAF Publication as of about two minutes ago:
Air Marshal AIRMSHL Air Vice-Marshal AVM Air Commodore AIRCDRE Group Captain GPCAPT Wing Commander WGCDR Squadron Leader SQNLDR Flight Lieutenant FLTLT Flying Officer FGOFF Pilot Officer PLTOFF Officer Cadet (University) OCDTU Officer Cadet OCDT Warrant Officer W/O Flight Sergeant F/S Sergeant SGT Corporal CPL Leading Aircraftman LAC Leading Aircraftman (Degree Trainee) LACDT Aircraftman AC Aircraftman (Degree Trainee) ACDT General Service Hand GSH
Pretty sure these were the norm when I joined 1980, although I also remember Flt Lt, Sqn Ldr, Wg Cdr, Gp Capt etc. Don't remember F/L S/L W/C etc
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Post by errolmartyn on Nov 9, 2017 13:16:22 GMT 12
Hi all, While doing a bit of reading I've noticed the way ranks are abbreviated and written, SQNLDR and FLGOFF for example. I think I first noticed it in air force press releases and in the Air Force News. Purely out of curiosity, when did this become the norm for the RNZAF? What was it before - S/L and F/O? Also, what was the hierarchy of a standard RNZAF squadron during the late 1980s, such as 75? What rank would the CO be, how many pilots below him and of what rank? Just some mindless research for a slow Thursday. I think this use (abuse?) of upper case abbreviations came into vogue with the introduction of computerisation of service records in about 1971 (in connection with a single letter previx to official number was introduced). At one point rank abbreviations then became so endemic that Colin Hanson and me wondered how long it would be before each individual in the air force would have their own unique rank abbreviation! Errol
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 9, 2017 13:20:27 GMT 12
There are so many variations of some ranks over the years. Another is S/Ldr which I have seen often and use myself.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 9, 2017 13:23:31 GMT 12
Somthing else that gets me is how the newspapers used to hyphenise so many ranks, Pilot-Officer, Flying-Officer, Group-Captain, etc, when the Air Force, to my knowledge, never used the hyphen.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 9, 2017 13:29:32 GMT 12
The abbreviations for rank during WWII in the RNZAF seemed to have been:
Air Vice-Marshal A.V.M. Air Commodore *not sure Group Captain G/C Wing Commander W/C Squadron Leader S/Ldr Flight Lieutenant F/Lt Flying Officer F/O Pilot Officer P/O Warrant Officer W/O Flight Sergeant F/Sgt Sergeant Sgt Corporal Cpl Leading Aircraftman L.A.C. Aircraftman Class 2 A.C.2 Aircraftman Class 1 A.C.1
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Post by baronbeeza on Nov 9, 2017 14:05:14 GMT 12
I think the FGOFF was used for signals traffic and some written communications. F/O would have been used also as well as other versions of abbreviations. Indeed I am now wondering how often the full version of the rank was used. I doubt much has changed in the 30 years since we were in so one of the younger, more current, mobsters can fill us all in.
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Post by fwx on Nov 9, 2017 14:09:29 GMT 12
In the case of wartime 75 (NZ) Sqdn (my abbrevation!), the Station Commander usually held the rank of Group Captain, Officer Commanding was a Wing Commander, and Flight Commanders usually held the rank of Squadron Leader (occasionally Flight Lieutenants held these positions, but promotion to S/L seemed to happen fairly quickly). Trades leaders, eg., Bombing Leader, Navigation Leader, etc., were usually Flight Lieutenants.
Here's one for the experts: S/L George Eric Fowler RAF was a Navigator and Bomb Aimer by trade, but on his second tour with 75, he rose to the position of Flight Commander and briefly, acting Officer Commanding (after the loss of W/C Vic Mitchell).
He flew numerous op's as Flight Commander with the rank of S/L, and held the position of Captain for those op's, the only cases of a non-Pilot Captain that I can find in the 75 records (40-45).
Was there any RNZAF policy covering this, as I am told that this would not usually happen in an RAF squadron?
Thanks, Chris
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Post by isc on Nov 9, 2017 14:36:40 GMT 12
I think there were times when the Captain could be a Sergeant Pilot, any officer, as a crew member took orders from him when he was pilot, off the aircraft he reverted to NCO rank. A late friend was a sergeant pilot on Lancasters. isc
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Post by ZacYates on Nov 9, 2017 15:38:36 GMT 12
How about on Skyhawks? I'm guessing the CO would be a Squadron Leader but I'm curious about the make-up of the rest of the pilots.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 9, 2017 17:04:14 GMT 12
The squadron commander in a modern RNZAF squadron is (almost) always a Wing Commander Zac, including the Skyhawk squadrons. Some of the modern squadrons have only half the personnel of other squadrons, too.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 9, 2017 17:05:49 GMT 12
The captain of the aircraft is the man (now person) in charge of the crew, regardless of rank, and that is almost exclusively always the pilot. Was S/Ldr Fowler the Navigation Leader, Chris?
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Post by frankly on Nov 9, 2017 18:50:57 GMT 12
The squadron commander in a modern RNZAF squadron is (almost) always a Wing Commander Zac, including the Skyhawk squadrons. Some of the modern squadrons have only half the personnel of other squadrons, too. Correct for the numbered squadrons. Avionics, AMS actually commanded by SQNLDRs.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 9, 2017 18:57:48 GMT 12
Ah yes, I was thinking only of the squadrons with aircraft/aircrew. Well pointed out there Frankly.
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Post by fwx on Nov 9, 2017 20:28:04 GMT 12
I'm sure I read somewhere that Fowler was Navigation Leader at one point Dave, although lacking evidence at this moment. He was Commander B Flight as well, from 2.11.42 – 18.12.42.
F/L Charles Woodbine Parish, RAF 81927 took over B Flight on 8.12.42 but had a very short tenure - for some unknown reason he was posted out on 18.1.43.
The ORBs don't tell us who ran B Flight until F/L Edward Robert Myddleton Appleton, RAF was posted in on 16.4.43. Fowler was back on op's during that period carrying the rank of S/L, and 'Captaining', so may have taken over again.
Apparently in the wartime French and Polish air forces a more senior, non-pilot officer could Captain an aircraft, but not in the RAF. So the questioner thought it could be RNZAF tradition or policy as well.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 9, 2017 21:43:24 GMT 12
"F/L Charles Woodbine Parish, RAF 81927 took over B Flight on 8.12.42 but had a very short tenure - for some unknown reason he was posted out on 18.1.43."
Possibly the same reason Flight Commander Geoff Rothwell was posted out, when it was pointed out that Flight Commanders and CO had to be New Zealanders.
The RNZAF had the same policy as the RAF, the pilot was captain even if he was a Sgt and his Air Gunner was a F/Lt. I am wondering however if there was an exception made for the Navigation Leader because he was leading the entire Flight/Squadron/formation with his navigating so perhaps had to have command over the pilot? Not sure.
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Post by tbf25o4 on Nov 10, 2017 9:53:58 GMT 12
Dave, there have been a number of occasions where the CO of a flying squadron has not been a pilot. For example Pat Neville was CO of 14 squadron and he was a navigator who later became CAS The current CO of 3 Squadron is a flight engineer by trade Bob Randal CO of 42 squadron was a navigator
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 11, 2017 23:10:19 GMT 12
Yes that is true Paul, but what I was actually saying is the CAPTAIN of an aircrew is almost always the pilot, regardless of rank. I was not commenting on the commander of a squadron. I was aware of your first two examples.
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Post by tbf25o4 on Nov 12, 2017 8:01:18 GMT 12
Accepted Dave, but there are a number of examples where the captain of an aircraft was not a pilot. For example Nick Olney (Base Commander at Ohakea) was a frequent captain of Orion crews as a Navigator
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Post by skyhawkdon on Nov 12, 2017 8:22:18 GMT 12
CO75 in my time was always a Wing Commander position but the COs of 2 & 14 were always Squadron Leaders.
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