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Post by alanw on May 10, 2018 12:04:41 GMT 12
Hi All, One for our Forum Brain Trust  In the attached photo link (posted by Dave H) in the Harvard Collection, is a line up of Harvard's and P40E-1's at Ohakea.  looking closely there is both a Harvard and a P40E-1 wearing the Code "FE-A" How common was this at RNZAF OTU's or at Squadron level? Look forward to any /all comments Thanks Alan |
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Post by davidd on May 11, 2018 10:04:18 GMT 12
Well, the photo proves that it did happen, but how common? Probably not THAT common. So far as I know, the initial three P-40 squadrons, with about 12 P-40s and 6 Harvards each, did NOT allocate the same identification letter on two aircraft types simultaneously, but I cannot prove that. As with all other questions regarding these "tactical markings", we only have a very incomplete picture and are forced to rely on too few really hard facts in a (probably futile) attempt to come up with general rules of application. Nevertheless, if one of those 2 OTU aircraft flew past somebody low enough to enrage somebody in 1943, and that person was observant enough to note the code letters, all the RNZAF had to do was to ask him/her if it sounded like a Harvard (everybody knows what a Harvard sounds like - don't they?)- and the pilot would have been for it! That would be my guess, but why create circumstances likely to lead to confusion in the first place? Incidentally I am pretty certain I know the photo you refer to, but as it seemed to be taking an eternity coming up on my machine, I gave up. However the caption indicates that the photo is dated November 1942, whereas I would have dated it at least six or seven months later, to about July 1943.
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 11, 2018 11:22:35 GMT 12
I have fixed the photo link so it actually shows up here now.
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 11, 2018 11:25:29 GMT 12
Regarding the date, the handwritten caption in Noel Hanna's album under this photo read "Ohakea - about November 1942." I assumed it was taken during his time at the OTU. He was with No. 14 Squadron from 9th of December 1942.
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 11, 2018 11:30:39 GMT 12
Something I don't understand is the system for allocating squadron codes or the aircraft buzz numbers to aircraft. It seems completely random when you look at the serials in numerical order. It's almost as if the aircraft were randomly lined up on the flightline and someone went along and painted A, B, C, D, etc on them. Or was there method to the madness?
Like No. 14 (F) Squadron had twelve P-40E's to begin with and among them they had aircraft coded A, B and Q, where the heck did Q come into it?
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Post by alanw on May 11, 2018 13:22:57 GMT 12
Well, the photo proves that it did happen, but how common? Probably not THAT common. So far as I know, the initial three P-40 squadrons, with about 12 P-40s and 6 Harvards each, did NOT allocate the same identification letter on two aircraft types simultaneously, but I cannot prove that. As with all other questions regarding these "tactical markings", we only have a very incomplete picture and are forced to rely on too few really hard facts in a (probably futile) attempt to come up with general rules of application. Nevertheless, if one of those 2 OTU aircraft flew past somebody low enough to enrage somebody in 1943, and that person was observant enough to note the code letters, all the RNZAF had to do was to ask him/her if it sounded like a Harvard (everybody knows what a Harvard sounds like - don't they?)- and the pilot would have been for it! That would be my guess, but why create circumstances likely to lead to confusion in the first place? Incidentally I am pretty certain I know the photo you refer to, but as it seemed to be taking an eternity coming up on my machine, I gave up. However the caption indicates that the photo is dated November 1942, whereas I would have dated it at least six or seven months later, to about July 1943. David D Thank you for your Reply, very much appreciated. I guess it being perhaps an anomaly ie which aircraft type arrived first, and when both Harvard and P40 ended up with the Codes, someone decided there where better things to do then change it? I had to chuckle when I read your low flying comment, reading Bryan Cox and Alex Horn;s books, both flew over family farms or their girls place (low level)... Dave H - Thanks for that Not sure why the Letter "Q"? I do know the RAF had "A Flight Leader" with Code A, and the B Flight Leader used Code M, perhaps someone decided at HQ Wellington on Q just to be different to the RAF?  Thanks again gents, much appreciate your time and comments Kind Regards Alan |
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Post by davidd on May 12, 2018 12:32:27 GMT 12
RNZAF generally followed RAF practice, and this continued into the postwar era, with three-letter codes worn on Mosquitos, Oxfords, Catalinas and Sunderlands, as late as 1959 (in case of Sunderlands). Individual letter codes were of course applied to Vampires and Venoms flown by 14 Squadron from Singapore, and ditto on Sunderlands 1959 - 67. So use of the letter Q is definitely following standard RAF practice, for an aircraft of B Flight. Post-war establishments were not always as generous as wartime ones, but 14 Squadron in Singapore had a standard strength (establishment) of 16 aircraft, plus two dual-control trainers, the latter in postwar RAF practice being allocated the letters Y and Z (this practice also used on dual Mosquitos with 75 Sqdn). However there are always exceptions, with letters I and O frequently not being utilised. So you can get letters A to L allocated to A Flight (or lower letter if a/c establishment much smaller, such as Sunderland squadron with maximum of six aircraft for BOTH flights, just three each), and M to Z for B Flight (unless duals carried on strength). In the case of the wartime P-40 squadrons, Harvards would have taken their fair share of available letters, and as alanw states, sometimes it would simply boil down to exactly when a particular aircraft actually arrived on the unit. I doubt that the RNZAF seriously deviated that much from RAF practice. Incidentally, photographs of RNZAF wartime Harvards wearing three-letter codes are quite rare, particularly in cases of the early fighter squadrons (Nos. 14 to 18), and No. 22 (AC) Squadron, although it has never been confirmed that the latter squadron ever painted such codes on. This squadron used the unit code "TX", so keep your eyes open if you are lucky enough to have access to old wartime albums!
David D
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 12, 2018 14:46:41 GMT 12
There are loads of photos of No. 21 Squadron Harvards with code letters. Also No. 8 (GR) Squadron had Harvards with codes. I was saying recently in a conversation that with the interest shown on the P-40 Codes thread I might start a new one with codes of operational and OTU Harvards.
Another thing regarding the doubling up of codes on the OTU, there are several photos of P-40's with codes that have an additional number, such as FE-A1. I wonder if this was to sort out the doubling up issue?
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Post by davidd on May 13, 2018 17:41:26 GMT 12
Yes Dave, I think you would be right, the Fighter OTUs in latter part of war had (off the top of my head) a standard establishment of 37 P-40s and ten Harvards, so lots of combinations required - far too many for the mere 26 letters available (if they had used all available letters that is).
Incidentally the Army Co-op squadron Harvards mentioned in previous post which we seem to have no photographs of wearing codes was 22 Sqdn, which should have had "TX" codes. Also ever seen 8 Sqdn Oxfords with PA codes? I haven't, but they may have existed.
David D
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