tnos
Warrant Officer
Posts: 32
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Post by tnos on Mar 12, 2022 14:29:35 GMT 12
To me this is a wider issue with neither major party talking about Defence. We know one lot have no interest in spending any budget on defence as it’s a dirty word to them. The other lots seem to be talking reduced spending and I don’t see defence somehow being the magical department that somehow the budget will go up under that plan or even maintain the budget.
The sad thing is this isn’t computing in our political parties brains. That the world is going down hill. The future will see conflicts over resources and geo politics and the current events show your not able to count on anyone coming to you defence.
We need spending across the board in the Navy, Army, Air Force. And an increase of numbers to go with it. We need to see either party get serious for once about defence.
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Post by Chelsea57986 on Mar 12, 2022 15:24:43 GMT 12
To me this is a wider issue with neither major party talking about Defence. We know one lot have no interest in spending any budget on defence as it’s a dirty word to them. The other lots seem to be talking reduced spending and I don’t see defence somehow being the magical department that somehow the budget will go up under that plan or even maintain the budget. The sad thing is this isn’t computing in our political parties brains. That the world is going down hill. The future will see conflicts over resources and geo politics and the current events show your not able to count on anyone coming to you defence. We need spending across the board in the Navy, Army, Air Force. And an increase of numbers to go with it. We need to see either party get serious for once about defence. People need to remember that recent history has been rather a lull in wars between major countries, we like to think we're more civilized now so that's not going to revert. But as we need more resources from a ever dwindling pile, and China, Russia, and the like follow the accepted norms less and less, odds on a particular unpleasant object will hit the fan. When people say there is no need for e.g. fast jets that may be true of the here and now but there likely will come a time when they would be of great use. But if we haven't got them when we need them it will be too late. Not trying to sound doom and gloom or anything, but.
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Post by mcmaster on Mar 12, 2022 18:25:19 GMT 12
To me this is a wider issue with neither major party talking about Defence. We know one lot have no interest in spending any budget on defence as it’s a dirty word to them. The other lots seem to be talking reduced spending and I don’t see defence somehow being the magical department that somehow the budget will go up under that plan or even maintain the budget. The sad thing is this isn’t computing in our political parties brains. That the world is going down hill. The future will see conflicts over resources and geo politics and the current events show your not able to count on anyone coming to you defence. We need spending across the board in the Navy, Army, Air Force. And an increase of numbers to go with it. We need to see either party get serious for once about defence. Good points. The political parties will only act if there is community concern with the way the world is headed and if that comes up at BBQs/etc and then reflected in poling. In Australia National Security is right up there and the opposition wants to be seen to show bipartisan support for increased defence spending. How long that unified position will last who knows but I don't see it fading quickly whilst China still makes demands of us to fall into line and fires lasers at our aircraft in our northern EEZ. I don’t know much about NZs politics but the way it’s described above seems it’s way down in priority. Germany is a good example of how quickly things can change however and wonder what circumstances might trigger defence coming up in NZers minds?
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Post by Antonio on Mar 12, 2022 22:36:54 GMT 12
The future will see conflicts over resources and geo politics and the current events show your not able to count on anyone coming to you defence. Well said, sir
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Post by snafu on Mar 13, 2022 8:54:43 GMT 12
We could have just not cancelled the F-16’s??? Yep so true. Here’s an idea to get NZ back in game quickly. Edit : Assuming deal below has died…Aus gifts NZ 20 or so Classic hornets currently sitting at Williamtown doing nothing. As a core cadre of pilots is worked up with training from recently retired RAAF pilots, These are then rotated through same US Marine and Canada upgrade to AESA radars etc to make them hot gen 4 fighters. For infrastructure these could be based at Willi initially under a Nowra A4 style agreement. Obviously they’d go back to NZ for air policing or ops with NZ army or Navy. As the movie the Castle goes.. tell him he’s dreaming.. www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/32869/this-man-owns-the-worlds-most-advanced-private-air-force-after-buying-46-f-a-18-hornetsWhy do we need to gift to you, it’s not like you cannot afford it RCAF didn’t expect to be gifted aircraft nor should RNZAF
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Post by snafu on Mar 13, 2022 8:59:58 GMT 12
Aussie classics are a bit flogged out... The PAF still operates ex RAAF Mirage III RCAF operating ex RAAF classic Hornets It comes down to how much you want to invest in the equipment, in the RAAF case there comes a point where the curve leans towards investing in new aircraft than maintenance of old. And that comes down to political will
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Post by snafu on Mar 13, 2022 9:27:31 GMT 12
Fast Jets are a non starter for many reasons. From a South China Sea POW, any imagined larger defence budget would most effectively be absorbed by Additional P-8s -It's really the only platform in our OOB that is first team. New frigates - maybe a 3rd? New helicopters for the Navy - With ASW capbaility! The above would be a very expensive shopping list! And the following could be added to the list: - Replacement of the Boeing 757's with more capable multi role aircraft - UAV's (Airforce & Army) and Loitering munitions. - Replacement of HMNZS Canterbury (e.g. LPD) - Some form of air defence for the Army (other than firing their rifles in the air...) Agree to what NZDF can contribute overall where it can contribute the most it does not mean the aircraft have to be put in harms way more than one way to skin a cat, ANZUS is based on collective defence just like five eyes is all about shareing information forward deployment does not mean put in harms way I believe there is a case for NZ to reinvest in a ACF but it’s not one that will win browny points within the green influenced government. The government can have its cake and eat it all the while contribute to the ANZUS alliance Canberra & Wellington can have there differences in where they want to engage it’s military, for NZ just like Australia it’s all about forward defence , how can it contribute to the wider ANZUS community. It’s all about the enablers such as AAR aircraft it’s about filling in the shoes when the other move to military just like the RNZN did in 82 for the Falklands it replace a patrol frigate to free up the RN in there time of need. The RAAF did it in 2001 to provide air patrols in Diego Garcia as it was used as a staging point for long range bombers. It maybe tokenism but it shows commitment to the alliance
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Post by joey05 on Mar 13, 2022 14:08:12 GMT 12
I think UAVs would be a more likely road than manned fast jets, as much as I would love to see even a Hawk in RNZAF colours!
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Post by snafu on Mar 13, 2022 14:25:38 GMT 12
I think UAVs would be a more likely road than manned fast jets, as much as I would love to see even a Hawk in RNZAF colours! Sorry I think they are complimentary to manned aircraft, especially in high SEAD missions before the main body arrives Connectivity I think will be a issue for many years too come in neer peer adversaries you don not want to lose control of the entire fleet
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Post by thelensofhistory on Mar 13, 2022 15:19:59 GMT 12
Given recent global events, this must now be a serious topic for govt consideration. What's the likely best way forward? I don't think there is a single MP in the government or opposition ranks who understands the strategic peril New Zealand is facing from events in Ukraine. So I would be amazed if any moves towards rebuilding the NZDF's personnel numbers and core capabilities occurred.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 13, 2022 16:05:58 GMT 12
I don't think there is a single MP in the government or opposition ranks who understands the strategic peril New Zealand is facing from events in Ukraine. Maybe Chris Penk, MP for Kaipara, who is ex-RNZN and RAN.
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madmark
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 78
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Post by madmark on Mar 13, 2022 20:26:32 GMT 12
Yup, the peace dividend is gone. The world is changing and the rules based system that’s kept the peace more or less since WW2 has just been ripped apart by Vlad. China, our largest trading partner (that’s a whole other rant) is supporting Russia through increased purchases of oil wheat etc and NZ is totally blind to what is going on. Sorry if that is too political, but it seems we are still stuck talking about covid while the rest of the world is gearing up for WW3. Much as I’d love to see some FJ action in our Air Force it’s fairly obvious that any approach to NZ would be by sea. I think the only platform that would make anyone nervous about approaching NZ would be of the sub-surface variety. Annoyingly our govt will never stump up the cash for a few decent AIP submarines..
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Post by mcmaster on Mar 13, 2022 21:00:26 GMT 12
Yup, the peace dividend is gone. The world is changing and the rules based system that’s kept the peace more or less since WW2 has just been ripped apart by Vlad. China, our largest trading partner (that’s a whole other rant) is supporting Russia through increased purchases of oil wheat etc and NZ is totally blind to what is going on. Sorry if that is too political, but it seems we are still stuck talking about covid while the rest of the world is gearing up for WW3. Much as I’d love to see some FJ action in our Air Force it’s fairly obvious that any approach to NZ would be by sea. I think the only platform that would make anyone nervous about approaching NZ would be of the sub-surface variety. Annoyingly our govt will never stump up the cash for a few decent AIP submarines.. Good points and I think what Putin is doing goes beyond the political as we are gobsmacked he invaded and appalled at the unnecessary violence being metered out. China’s implicit approval and repeating same Kremlin lines is also worrying. I think you hit the nail on the head re a capability that makes a the aggressor think twice. Aus and NZ will never match China but we need to show we could give a right good bloody nose if push comes to shove.
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Post by phil on Mar 13, 2022 23:27:18 GMT 12
Aussie classics are a bit flogged out... The PAF still operates ex RAAF Mirage III RCAF operating ex RAAF classic Hornets It comes down to how much you want to invest in the equipment, in the RAAF case there comes a point where the curve leans towards investing in new aircraft than maintenance of old. And that comes down to political will Canadian defence procurement is hardly something to hold up as a shining example. A/B Hornets are at the wrong end of their development life, and will become more and more unsupportable. The RNZAF have learnt that buying ex ADF aircraft at 'bargain' prices is a poor investment when the platform is an orphan with little on going support available for its systems.
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Post by snafu on Mar 14, 2022 5:38:11 GMT 12
The PAF still operates ex RAAF Mirage III RCAF operating ex RAAF classic Hornets It comes down to how much you want to invest in the equipment, in the RAAF case there comes a point where the curve leans towards investing in new aircraft than maintenance of old. And that comes down to political will Canadian defence procurement is hardly something to hold up as a shining example. A/B Hornets are at the wrong end of their development life, and will become more and more unsupportable. The RNZAF have learnt that buying ex ADF aircraft at 'bargain' prices is a poor investment when the platform is an orphan with little on going support available for its systems. I didn’t say it was the right choice or the best choice, just an example that the ex RAAF airframes are not unusable. It’s a political choice to either extend the usefulness of the airframes or not. An example is the F111 in the RAAF they became orphan aircraft there were enough spares sitting in the boneyard for the AusGov to keep them flying out to 2050 if they wanted to but that’s were it became a cost factor to replace for new aircraft albeit not one that could not do the exact same job as no aircraft was a direct replacement. The USAF does exactly the same with the B52 it comes down to political will As to the RNZAF buying ex ADF that is a political decision no one held a gun to your head to buy them, the GOTD saw it a what they were a cheap alternative to buying new MH60R, it’s also interesting to note that Peru bought 4 ex RNZAF SH-2G‘s political will
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Post by Antonio on Mar 14, 2022 9:41:28 GMT 12
Look, regardless of your point-of-view it is a fact that in NZ there is no support for increasing the defence spending in any area from any political party of from the New Zealand public. A fact we have to live with but we do get to have our say every election.
Just give the respect due to our service personnel for their incredible ability to do the best job with the equipment they have been given. Certainly punching above their weight Salute!
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Post by retiredav8r on Mar 14, 2022 10:21:03 GMT 12
Look, regardless of your point-of-view it is a fact that in NZ there is no support for increasing the defence spending in any area from any political party of from the New Zealand public. A fact we have to live with but we do get to have our say every election. Just give the respect due to our service personnel for their incredible ability to do the best job with the equipment they have been given. Certainly punching above their weight Salute! Here here, well said. Although our military may not be the most advanced or equipped as we want it to be, NZ is a Rinke dink country. It is not economic for us, we have a population of an average city in many countries. Even when we had the A4's, they would have been eliminated quickly by any larger better equipped force. On that note, many forget also that our air force crew not only train here but in UK, Europe, Australia and USA. They are proficient in their equipment also. Hmmm a NH90 just flew past, wonder who?
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Post by snafu on Mar 14, 2022 13:28:09 GMT 12
Look, regardless of your point-of-view it is a fact that in NZ there is no support for increasing the defence spending in any area from any political party of from the New Zealand public. A fact we have to live with but we do get to have our say every election. Just give the respect due to our service personnel for their incredible ability to do the best job with the equipment they have been given. Certainly punching above their weight Salute! Not sure who this was directed to, but I’m sure no one disputes the professionalism of NZDF members, what is not particularly illustrated is the continued path the NZGov in becoming irrelevant, AUKUS and the QSD Show this At the end of the day this is a deliberate choice by the government. If it wants a seat at the table it needs to do more than be seen as a constabulary force Remember AUKUS is not just about nuclear submarines, it’s only one aspect to it
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Post by harvard1041 on Mar 14, 2022 19:28:59 GMT 12
As much as we all like a small rant, and like playing politician - it ain't going to happen folks...no public concern, no votes to win ...and no public perception that we even have a crisis on our hands. Sorry - but a pointless thread.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 14, 2022 19:44:42 GMT 12
I completely agree. This is one of those mass debate thread topics that will always go round in circles and get nowhere because none of it is going to happen. And it's been done to death before on previous threads. If you want to make a point about our defence, put your energies into lobbying the Minister of Defence.
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