The Inevitable Return of Fast Jets to the RNZAF

[mroz]

Given recent global events, this must now be a serious topic for govt consideration.
What's the likely best way forward?

[joey05]

Don’t have an elected government? 

[Chelsea57986]

We could get jets from China with Chinese pilots and ground support and they could build their own base, cheapest option. More realistic option is we have to pay Australia to let us start training up pilots and ground support presumably upgrade Ohakea again, they’d also have to pay for the planes and all the fuel and maintenance, it’s going to cost too much for them to want to do it until it’s too late and where being directly threatened.

They say there’s no threat so we don’t need them but when we do need them there won’t be time to obtain them.

My thoughts.

[pepe]

Mar 2, 2022 2:11:37 GMT 12 mroz said:

Given recent global events, this must now be a serious topic for govt consideration.
What's the likely best way forward?

At the moment I very much doubt it is a topic for serious Govt. consideration. Europe is a fairly distant place.
If something similar was occuring closer to home (e.g. South China Sea) then there may be more concern (though I am still doubtful).

[Antonio]

Musing.
The SAAB Gripen would be a good fit.
Cost-effective and would also make a great Dissimilar Air Combat Aircraft too

[skyman]

I'm with you with your choice of combat jets Antonio, two squadrons of Gripens based at Ohakea would be great. We should all remember well (and not forget!) when Ohakea was New Zealand's strike aircraft base for many years before some near-sighted PM stuffed it all up?
Al

[ams888]

Certainly an interesting thought. A different situation but Germany just okayed a $112.7 billion Euro boost to defence spending. If things changed in our neck of the woods, then surely we'd get support from the US, and at the start it wouldn't need to be advanced fighters. 10-20 F5E advanced trainers to begin with?

[mcmaster]

The South China Sea invasion already happened .. by stealth. Not sure what other change in our neck of the woods you are waiting for. PLA base in South Pacific?

[eieio]

after todays event dream on folks, North Korea coming up [in NZ]

[pepe]

Mar 2, 2022 17:49:36 GMT 12 mcmaster said:

The South China Sea invasion already happened .. by stealth. Not sure what other change in our neck of the woods you are waiting for. PLA base in South Pacific?

The tug of war over a few atolls in the South China Sea has been going on for decades. It hasn't been much of a secret and certainly doesn't seem to have prompted any increase in defence expenditure.
I am all for a larger Defence budget, but I would probably spend it in other other areas (e.g. UAV's) well before restoring fast air.
Those Ukrainian TB-2's seem to have been annoying those Russians quite a bit. Their Mig-29, SU-24 & 27's less so...

[Dave Homewood]

Mar 2, 2022 8:05:12 GMT 12 Chelsea57986 said:

We could get jets from China with Chinese pilots and ground support and they could build their own base

I am sure that will be happening soon enough, but not to our advantage in any way!

[Dave Homewood]

Hey everyone, keep it civil and respectful here please people. You can express your opinion on the topic but there is no need to be rude or arrogant or disrespectful about others while doing so. Any more, and this thread will be removed.

[Dave Homewood]

Following several complaints, some posts have been removed from this thread.

Don't make me remove the whole thread!

[joey05]

Lots of retired F16s in the desert along with Goshawks, not the most up to date but would get a strike wing going quickly and (relatively) cheaply. I am sure the Americans would prefer us to operate some US muscle!

[Chelsea57986]

Mar 3, 2022 16:09:20 GMT 12 joey05 said:

Lots of retired F16s in the desert along with Goshawks, not the most up to date but would get a strike wing going quickly and (relatively) cheaply. I am sure the Americans would prefer us to operate some US muscle!

I’ve always thought if we ever tried to rebuild a strike force that the Americans would rather forcefully suggest American planes.

[mcmaster]

Come join the F35 party, everyone is there. One or two squadrons would see the RNZAF return to the 90s when it could supplement - to nearly a quarter - RAAF air combat.

[Antonio]

$40,000 per flying hour?

[30sqnatc]

Any defence spending increase like that is an absolute dream. More chance we could raise a battalion of battle seasoned 'freedom protesters' to conduct guerrilla operations on any invader.

[mcmaster]

Mar 3, 2022 17:24:14 GMT 12 Antonio said:

$40,000 per flying hour?

Way too high its US $25,500. Very interesting debate going on in Canada at present re their choice between Lightning II and Gripen. Interesting to see how that plays out. Finland recently selected the F35 over the Gripen. In the local region, the Indonesians have gone for the Rafale and also (I think) the F15 advanced Eagle.

[nige]

Putting aside how realistic this may or may not be (let alone aircraft types and numbers), may I pose some other questions?

For Defence (and Govt), what other factors need to be considered? For example:

Infrastructure: Would new hangars be needed (thus more $$$ required) or would the original hangars still suffice (if so what existing squadrons using them would need relocating (42 Sqn?), or would a new, smaller hangar need to be built (more $$$) required to house them (eg presumably 42 Sqn's fleet could move into something smaller? Or share another hangar)?

Would new accommodation blocks would need to be built?

Would new maintenance and support facilities need to be built (or would existing facilities cope)?

Didn't Ohakea have its own ground/primary radar systems pre-2001? If so, weren't they decommissioned at the time meaning new facilities and systems would need to be reinstated?

Is there a need for specialised becons and navigation aids for around the country?

Would additional new T-6 Texan training aircraft be required to cater for the increased pilot training activities? I understand they are stretched training pilots as it is, so how many additional Texans would be required?

What would be the LIFT aircraft trainer and how many would be required? (Presumably similar numbers to the Strikemasters and Macchis)? Interesting that planning is underway for the UK and US LIFT aircraft to be replaced (eg the T-7A is being promoted for the USAF).

Can Ohakea cope with another (potentially) 2 or 3 dozen aircraft, mixing "fast air" in with the slower Texan and Beechcraft trainers roaming the same countryside (or would the Texans/Beechcrafts need to relocate), as well as the other operational squadrons (3 Sqn's helicopters and 5 Sqn's Poseidons in due course). Wasn't this one of the reasons why the Singapore F-15 basing didn't proceed?

If this was all to magically happen, it's almost as if the RNZAF needs another purpose built airbase, particularly as Whenuapai is constrained by urban growth and lack of opportunities to expand or lengthen runways etc?

Or how realistic would it be to move the Texans and B350's to Whenuapai, where the airspace is presumably rather congested with commercial airline (and other private training) operations?

So hypothetically speaking (and if the magic money tree is flowering), would a new airbase replace Whenuapai and if so where would it be situated?

Or would it better to retain Ohakea and Whenuapai as they are with no changes to the fleets, but as per the Singapore basing proposal suggestions, build an airfield at Waiouru for the fast jets only? How practical is Waiouru? Some negatives could be having an active volcano nearby (potentially curtailing flying activities), the extremes in temperatures (from freezing to generally only warm in summer) and perhaps lack of opportunities for employment for spouses?

Sorry, not trying to derail the conversation with nonsensical suggestions (like new airfields), but as these issues were highlighted in the Singapore basing proposal, I don't think there was much in the way of discussion on how to address these sorts of issues!