Pronounciation of native place names

[steve]

Here in Godszone in the past 15 years or so we seem to get new age instructions (via media)on how to pronounce local Maori regional names...Whenuapai remains unchanged however Waikato ( traditionally "wi cat toe" has become wi cot o ...Taupo (towel po) has become ..Too Pooh etc ...gee it grats me ..real pc stuff...what about in aussie in regards to the abbo place names especially in relation to RAAF bases?

[Dave Homewood]

The reason why many places have changed in recent times, according to a lecture I had at university, is because every differet tribe had its own dialect (much like going from place to place in the UK) and some professors decided that if the language was to survive and more people learn it, it had to be standardised.

So a small group sat down at the university of Wakato and worked out the new Maori language, taking bits from all over different dialects.

He actually said that in some South Island dialects Wai was not the word for water, and there were many other conflicitng words that had to be decided upon. He also said - get this!! - that the letters wh did not mean ffff or ph in most dialects, but were the more traditional sounding wh as in whistle. Hence the reason why the early missionaries and the first English-speaking Maoris wrote it as WH and not PH. Since he said that I no longer use the PC fff sound and revert to the traditional usage. It's Whangarei, not Phangarei, etc. (unless you're from one of the tribes that did use the fff sound). Conwhusing eh!

The professor who told us all this was one of those who standardised the language. And guess what, he was white, and British.

[Dave Homewood]

Locally we have a lake in the centre of Cambridge. Forever it was called Lake Te Koutu. I have to assume this man-made lake got it's name from the local Maoris when it was first formed by settlers in the 1800's. It was formed from a backwater of the Karapiro Stream, now fed by stormwater.

So, since the 1870's or so when first 'built' it's been Te Koutu.

Till a few years ago one man, a local chief, kicked up a stink that people were spelling and pronouncing it wrong. He said the traditional way of saying the name was Te Ko Utu. The council bowed to him and changed the signs, at some expense.

This despite most others saying he was wrong. Everyone, and I mean everyone who is a Cambridge person, born and/or bred, still call it To Koutu. Only the Johnny come Lately's who've moved to town in the last few years call it the 'incorrect' name of Te Ko Utu.

That chief has since died and some suggestion has been mooted of changing our lake's name back to it's proper, traditional spelling and pronounciation of Te Koutu. I'd support that.

[Bruce]

Personally, I try to make the effort to pronounce names in the generally accepted manner of whatever language the name belongs to i.e trying to get the correct french pronunciation of French names, correct Maori for Maori names, correct english for English names etc. Bearing in mind that there is some variation as pointed out above, I personally think that it is just good manners to do so, regardles of PCism. Fortunately my name is difficult to mispronounce, but I would get pretty erked if it was. I like language and I actually like to make the effort to get it right (or as close to it)whatever the language. (I am actually intending to take a Maori Language course in the near future - at least working at a University you get a chance to use it on a regular basis)

[Dave Homewood]

Sure Bruce, the pronounciation of language is important. I agree,

But my point is, there are loads of variations across the different tribes, partly I guess because it was never a written language before settlers and missionaries came here and taught Maori to write in English letters.

Today, some 15 years or so after the standardisation came in, various Maori individuals and groups still complain that their language is being mispronounced and buthcered - even by the PC TV announcers, etc. This has to be because the standard language differs from the traditional dialect they were taught through the generations. For them some words of their dialect are of course going to be quite different from the new national standard. It will take generations to 'cure', and sadly the ancient dialects will die out leaving one bastardised single language.

As far as striving to get things correct goes, in the Te Koutu caseI cannot see how the longstanding placename for the lake that everyone, Maori and Pakeha alike, hae used for generations, can suddenly be wrong. Changing it to suit one man's ideal, and not sticking with that used when first named in the 1800's, is plain wrong! It's like someone coming along today and saying "Sorry chaps, Auckland is wrong and you will now write it as Ork Land."

As an aside, there's actually a chap, non-Maori, who was on National Radio a few months back. He has spent years researching placenames in NZ - especially Maori ones, to find their true oriin and ensure they're correctly written and spoken.

He has been changing those that are incorrect. He's had something like 20 place name spellings officially changed on NZ maps as they have been written down wrongly on maps over the years. He even pointed out that technically 'New Zealand' is spelled wrong, as originally when named by the Dutch Parliament (not Able Tasman by the way, he never named this country) it was named after the Dutch island called Zeeland. he does not intend to press that matter though. Imagine the cost if he did get it changed, or if it was changed to Aotearoa or something elese. There'd be billions of dollars wasted just in letterheads and advertising changes, etc.

A friend said to me the other day (she's in her 80's) how NZ is so determined to continually change things. It annoys here. Change the flag, change the country's name, pull down old buildings and put up hideous new ones. She reckoned, and I agreed, it's time we started to treat what we have with respect, and use it to build up our own heritage and tradition, rather than continually changing things for the sake of it.

[phil82]

There was a guy name of Winston Churchill made a comment on pronunciation, and I quote:
" Everybody has the right to pronounce foreign names as he sees fit".

Mind you, I think he was having one of his many spats with Le Big Snoz, de Gaulle.

[Dave Homewood]

The incomparable Arthur Lowe as Henry Livingstone Duckworth to a German tourist who has just pronounced something wrong - in in Galton and Simpson's excellent comedy "Car Along The Pass":

"You must always correct foreigners, otherwise they'll never get it right"

I guess you had to see it. Very funny, one of Arthur's best roles.

[FlyNavy]

"Don't you worry about that!" Famous Joh Bjelke Petersen saying.

Names change in Australia seemingly at a whim. I'm talking about ordinary English pronunciation here. One example that grates: Jervis Bay has somehow begun to be pronounced "JERVIS Bay" rather than what the locals and myself in the 1960s & 70s would have pronounced "JARVIS Bay".

Dunno which one is correct - and don't care - but it grates every time I hear it pronounced "Jervis" - must be getting on. :-)

"Everything changes all the time" DallyLama saying. :-) (Deliberately misspelt in the same manner as the name is mispronounced in USofA.)
Phil.

[Dave Homewood]

That Jervis Bay example is a good one, the naiive pronouncing it using English usage rules rather than local knowledge. The Americans seem to do that a lot, too much, with British names. One common one I heard in london from Americans in the hostels, etc was Leicester Square being called Lie-sester, and Lee-Sester rather than Lester.

I saw a doco once about a place in the USA called London. The locals were going on about how proud they were to be associated with Britain and showed all these streets like Leicester, Gloucester, etc all mispronounced in their own way. The killer was the river running through the town was the River Thames, but they all pronounced it with the T-H, as in thems. I don't think the British camera crew ad the heart to tell them...

[FlyNavy]

Dave,
The BRITS were kind to the YANKS (did I pronounce that correctly?) unlike Arthur (see above). :-)
Phil.

[steve]

Mar..we. .or .....Mod ..de I just get confused And suspect that historic pronunciation is been changed for the hell of it.... being trendy...Not only Maori placenames ...euro as well...Albany has always in Auckland been pronouced ...ale...bany Now in the "cafe circuit" you hear All.. baney ...I suppose language is changing all the time and i am being a little precious...however ...so what over the years English pronouciation of Maori place names has been distorted to a small degree ...no insult was ever intended to fellow citizens...just evolution like yes to yeah... Pri ver see or Priv a see stuff...Does anyone remember the true story of the american student flying from ? LA to "Oakland" California and ended up in Auckland NZ ...I forget the title now but worth seeing DVD i believe...

Waikato will be always be that to me and not Wi..cot.toe ...I take your point Bruce about making the effort to pronounce correctly howver as Dave makes the important conclusion that there is a lot of variation ... Any change will come slowly...Mt Egmount became Mt Taranaki...no probs...how about Cambridge changing to a local tribal invention or Hamilton becoming as was proposed not long ago "Waikato City"....Colonisation is nothing we should be ashamed of surely ...

[Dave Homewood]

I have always heard Albany pronounced both ways. Dad grew up in Auckland and called it All-binny. However they should be shamed into changing that place's name anyway - only 15 years ago it was a pretty village in the countryside. Now it's an industrial slum with smatterings of concrete retail pillboxes. Totally and utterly ruined.

You're right about the constant evolving of language, all language. I guess stick with what you're used to. Vive la difference. There's not enough time on earth to be so bloody picky so long as everyone knows what you mean. I mean, they're letting that bloody texting language be taught in schools now, and used in exams, so the world is diverse (or mad) enough to cope with one or two words with varying pronounciations.

I never heard the suggestion before of Hamilton becoming Waikato City. What made fool came up with that? I mean, the place has a Maori name already, Kirikiriroa. It's a much nicer name too. Any name change won't alter the fact it's still a dump.

One good one on evolving place names was a few years ago Roger Moore on Clive Anderson's All Talk. He said he'd grown up in the slum area of London called Streatham, but in recent times it had been redevloped and gone upmarket, so the posh new locals were adapting the name to St. Reatham. Very clever.

Even better on that show, after the intro Clive turns to his guest and asks boldly. "So, Roger Moore? Id that your real name? Or just a boast?" Classic.

[steve]

Point taken Dave ...Albany...has been swallowed by North Shore City expansion. You are lucky that Cambridge is too far from "Waikato City " to loose its individual charm..
This Waikato city nonsense came from the city council about 5 years ago and was presented on TV but widely rejected.

I suppose we all can resent change but as you say life is to short to be picky...I can understand the changing of certain names like Mt Egmount to Taranaki (on the basis that Egmount never came to New Zealand.and Taranai was always the province name ..however on the other hand neither did Welliington or Lord Auckland set foot on the land ...Interesting subject...

I'm getting o/t back to RNZAF ...bases Woodbourne and Harewood...any ideas to the origins? British localites or local ?

[Dave Homewood]

Oddly in ealy publications Woodbourne seems to be spelled as Woodburn. I don't know if it changed deliberately or if the RNZAF simply spelled it differently from the locals. I have read where the name came from, but can't think what it was. Something about settlers burning wood there I think.

Harewood - I've read of its origins too, but can't think. Named after a place in the UK I think. I'll try to find it.

Cambridge is sadly being fast encroached by ever spreading Hamilton. They'll soon become one of our northern suburbs without a doubt. Oh well, it'll make that city more desirable to live in.

Interestingly Cambridge was not named after the place nor the university in England, but after the cousin of Queen Victoria, the Duke of Cambridge. He was head of the British Army in NZ at the tme I think. More interestingly the University of Waikato was started by a group that were largely from this town and it was almost built here, becoming Cambridge University!