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Post by kb on Mar 1, 2007 22:06:53 GMT 12
I was born in 1940 so was a bit young for the war but I do have some memories. My sisters who are quite a bit older than me remember the Cutty Sark having a major problem off the Beach Haven wharf pre war.
I couldn't remember whether it was ANA or TAA who supplied the DC-4's to BCPA. What I do remember is that the Australian airline was contracted initially to start the pacific services and was VERY upset when BCPA took over the routes. When the first DC-4 was eventually and reluctantly handed over, it had four time expired engines!
I don't think the crash of the DC-6 was the impetus for TEAL taking over from BCPA. I believe that it was a question of the 100% Australian airline wanting to spread it's wings.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 1, 2007 22:26:48 GMT 12
kb,
is there any chance you could ask your sisters to write down thei memories of the Cutty Sark incident (and memories of any other activity around Whenuapai and Hobsonville for that matter - any memories of the Fairey IIIF's?) so you could post it on the forum? I know it sounds an odd thing to ask, but there is so little information around on the Cutty Sark and any memories recorded would be more than welcome. Cheers.
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Post by chrisnpl on Mar 1, 2007 23:44:37 GMT 12
Great memories KB! BCPA was indeed shared between Australia (50%), UK (30%) and NZ (20%). Each government had aspirations for its own airline to fly the route, or part of the route, that BCPA flew - and the crash of one of the airline's DC-6s at San Francisco certainly did not help - neither did the fact that it had made consistent losses for the last few years of its life. It had planned to run Comet 1s from Vancouver to Whenuapai. Meanwhile ANA and TAA thought the Australian government should give THEM the surviving DC-6s, which was part of the reason why they were given to TEAL. QANTAS - began flying some charters to New Zealand including Whenuapai with Super Connies in 1956, but its scheduled services began May 1961 with Lockheed L-188C Electras, after Australia's shares in TEAL were bought by the New Zealand government. The Air New Zealand Electras carried combined QANTAS/Air New Zealand titles when both airlines code-shared the routes to/from Melbourne Essendon and Wellington Rongotai 1970 - 72. They flew DC-4s to Whenuapai on behalf of TEAL 1955-65 as a continuation of their Sydney - Norfolk Island service, and this continued until 1975, also with a DC-4! - from Auckland International Airport, Mangere. Pan American ran DC-4s from 1946-52, tried Stratocruisers for a year which cracked the concrete a lot at Whenuapai and was also ?uneconomic, and then began running a DC-4 spur-line service to Nadi, connecting with the Stratocruiser between Sydney and San Francisco for the rest of the 1950s. They used a DC-7C between Nadi and Whenuapai 1960-65. CPA began in 1952 with their Merlin DC-4s as KB said, later bringing in DC-6s from about 1955; when Whenuapai was connected not only to Vancouver, but the same flight then went non-stop via the polar route to Amsterdam. They began replacing DC-6 service to Whenuapai with the turboprop Bristol Britannia in 1958; and the DC-6s were off the route by 1960 - when the Britannia service terminated at Honolulu, with a connecting DC-8 with the same flight number flying onto Vancouver then non-stop to Amsterdam. This arrangement continued until Whenuapai closed to civil traffic. And they were indeed thinking of Comet 1s to Whenuapai until the crashes, including one of their own. BOAC flew some immigrant flights with Brittanias, Comet 1s, and Comet 4s in the 1950s, but scheduled service began April 1963 when Comet G-APDH arrived from Sydney, Darwin, Singapore, Rangoon, Calcutta, Karachi, Damascus, Rome, and London's Heath Row Airport. The Comet service continued until Whenuapai closed and was replaced by Boeing 707s and Vickers VC-10s to Mangere. I got told a story about an Air India DC-4 - not a Constellation, visiting about 1950, by a volunteer at MOTAT who was on the Whenuapai Ground Operations crew at that time. The Indians were being flown out to work on the ships, and were very eager to get off the aeroplane after their long flight - so they did not wait for the stick to be put under the tail of the aircraft. The DC-4 promptly ended up on its tail, the captain screamed at the passengers who all ran up to the front, the DC-4 came right way up, the proper procedures were then followed with the stabilised aeroplane, and the passengers then disembarked. KLM and Sabena did bring charters out as well - I wonder if Lufthansa and Air France came? Thank you so much for flying me around at Whenuapai Peter... I have to figure out how to get the photos off the camera onto my computer and will then post some up here if someone can tell me how! (Not technologically able, horrific for an under-30 year old). I will start working on that tomorrow - day off - 120 to sort out! An airline not mentioned yet (I think) was the French airline, Transports Aeriens Intercontinentaux, which from 1957-59 flew Whenuapai - Noumea - Brisbane - Darwin - Saigon - Karachi - Athens - Paris Orly with a DC-6. From 1960-63 they flew from Whenuapai to Noumea with a DC-4. In 1963 they merged with another airline whose name I forget to form Union des Transports Aeriens (UTA) - which promptly cancelled TEAL's rights to Tahiti, at least until Mangere was opened. Air New Zealand re-opened the route in 1967, but meanwhile (1963-65) TEAL were permitted to fly weekly to New Caledonia. BOAC had their Comet 4 at Whenuapai for three days, arriving Thursday departing Saturday; so they flew the weekly flight to Noumea on Fridays for TEAL. Thanks everyone for all the stories - keep them coming! And yet more old black and whites from Whenuapai Peter - of the Comet - how many more have you got tucked away!? And I still cannot figure out how many gates there were - a small detail, which is probably why it bugs me. From the timetables and photos it seems there were about eight gates, with the international ones at the far end of the tarmac being 7A and 7B. Perhaps there was an unofficial gate 8 out on the tarmac for the extra international aircraft from time to time, as 1965 photos inside the terminal clearly state "International Gates A & B" - and the New Zealand in 1956 - with the opening of the new terminal at the RNZAF Station - proudly proclaimed "Whenuapai will now be able to take TWO international aeroplanes AT THE SAME TIME!!!"
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 1, 2007 23:57:55 GMT 12
Chris, when you were in Auckland did you get to visit Motat? And if so, were you able to access much in their library? Any use?
Also, the first scheduled service between the UK and NZ via Canada, which took in Whenuapai I believe, started in 1944 when the RAF put on a special service with Winston Churchill's ex-aircraft, a highly modifed Liberator. It was a weekly service I think from memory and was for services and I believe some civilians. Have you looked into that? It had a specific name for the service but I forget it. We've discussed it here before though ages ago.
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Post by kb on Mar 2, 2007 7:57:10 GMT 12
Pan Am did fly at least some Stratocruiser flights into Whenuapai after they had reinstated DC-4s. I clearly remember seeing at least one painted in the final Stratocruiser scheme flying over and thinking, "Wow they are flying Stratocruisers again. An d a different scheme." Much more exiting than DC-4s!
Can anyone tell be how to post photos please?
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Post by Bruce on Mar 2, 2007 8:53:57 GMT 12
If you go to the "general" boards tab, you will see a thread with instructions on posting photos. Look forward to seeing some - I love classic propliners!
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Post by phil82 on Mar 2, 2007 9:27:18 GMT 12
My brand new wife and I flew on that Qantas DC4 to Norfolk Island in 1971.
That Connie at Avalon looks and sounds magnificent, especially at dusk when the exhaust rings turn blue!
I was chased by a C121, US Navy Constellation once, at Ohakea, but that's another tale!
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Post by chrisnpl on Mar 2, 2007 15:36:09 GMT 12
I did go to MOTAT and the Walsh Library were very helpful. They brought me a big manila folder stuffed with photos of Whenuapai from the Leo White Collection - but I found that the copyright has actually passed to the Alexander Turnbull Library, Wellington, instead of the firm in Albany that had held them until about a week before I went to Auckland! They also have a full collection of Whites Aviation and New Zealand Wings, but after reading about twenty periodicals and barely getting through 1950, I had to give up! I did however go through three four inch thick files of letters and newspaper cuttings at the Auckland City Archives; and got a few articles from the Auckland City Scrapbook and the New Zealand Scrapbook at the Auckland City Library. I also got the DC-4 story above, from visiting MOTAT. Thanks for the RAF flight Dave - am mainly focusing on 1945-65 and the civil operations... but it looks like the place had eight at most nine gates and twelve or thirteen aircraft overnighting at times on the tarmac so where they put them all is a mystery to me!!! I wonder if the RNZAF let the odd overnighting airliner park up at their end??? Even with the Dominies and a couple of DC-3s taken away to the NAC hangar past the RNZAF area, there might have still been an aircraft or two sitting around, particularly as more and more Friendships replaced the DC-3s through the early 1960s.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 2, 2007 23:27:38 GMT 12
I reckon you should visit your local RNZAF Association clubroom or RSA and see if you can find any airmen who served there during that 20 year period. They may be able to tell you about th civil movements, ie how the gates were structured, etc.
Also you could write to New Zealand Memories magazine and get them to publish a plea for info, you might get a load of responses through that.
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Post by chrisnpl on Mar 3, 2007 21:30:27 GMT 12
Well here we go - now the "techno-twit" has finally figured a few things out... like how to connect up the digicam to the computer and revise how to use photobucket!!! The following images of RNZAF Base Auckland: Whenuapai Airfield, were taken in Mid - February, 2007 Old TEAL Hangar at left of photo; old civilian terminal to immediate left of the Boeing 757. Old SPANZ Area Apron, Whenuapai Old Flight Kitchens and No. 1 Hangar, at the end of Hoturoa Crescent. Air Movements - the old Civilian Air Terminal - much changed since the Civilian days, although the original structure is still visible. Hangar No.2, looking back down Tainui Crescent The final remains of TEAL's ZK-TEC Akaroa were pushed into this little valley. The old NAC Hangar is at top left. Looking down the hexagonal block taxiway (Taxiway H) - in 1942 when this taxiway was laid, every bit of concrete in the country went to either Whenuapai or Ohakea. Whenuapai Airfield Another shot of Whenuapai Airfield Will put some more photos up when I get back from night-duty. And finally - can someone tell me how to shrink the file size of the images? I know that sounds crazy as this will degrade the image quality, but the printer I have selected who is great in many other ways; has given me a strict limit of 5MB on the final document. The photos above are around 15MB on their own!
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Post by Peter Lewis on Mar 3, 2007 22:21:41 GMT 12
Good pics there Chris. Nice to see the aerial shots from the passengers perspective. Found out today that the two concrete hangars are officially Hangars 1 and 2, the old NAC hangar is hangar 3, and the ex-TEAL one is hangar 4 (thanks Stu!). Apart from my catologued photos, I have an old shoebox full of old photographic jumble, which I am gradually working my way through. The Comet ones were in this. There may be others, but its a bit of a lucky dip. Will keep you posted on any others I find.
To reduce the image size you need a photograph manipultion program like Paintshop Pro or Photoshop CS. There will be a 'Edit - Reduce image size' tool there. Realise that this tool will simply reduce the width and height of the image (defined in inches, centimeters or pixels) but keep the same resolution. To decrease resolution without affecting the image size, use the 'File - Export - JPEG optimizer' tool.
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Post by chrisnpl on Mar 4, 2007 9:21:56 GMT 12
Here we go - ten more photos. First - more of the hexagonal blocks showing the original make-up of the airfield. This was the end of ex-runway 12 - where the taxiway joins it to the start of Runway 08. Now... the fly-past, along Runway 03/21: Photo 1: VORTAC Beacon (centre) and rectangular former NAC Hangar to left Photo 2: Whenuapai Aviation Sports Club (far right) - next in line former NAC Hangar (Hangar 3), followed by Hangar Two and Control Tower at far left. Photo 3: Hangar One (left) and Hangar Two (right). Sportsground and Barracks to rear of Hangar Two. Can anyone tell me what the building between the two concrete hangars is? Photo 4: Moving down into the old Civilian Area; which began just south of Hangar One. The steel doors on Hangars 1 & 2 were installed in 1962, replacing the old concrete ones. Photo Five: North third of the old Civilian Apron, with two Hercules aircraft - Officers Housing in mid picture, barracks to the rear. Photo Six: Looking straight at the old Civil Air Terminal. Both the RNZAF's Boeing 757s are in today. Photo Seven: Looking back along the Main Taxiway to Hangar Four (the old TEAL Hangar) and the Terminal. 03/21 Fly-past ends here. Here we go, up - and down! Runway 03/21 - from RWY 21 end. Note: runway touchdown markings are spaced at 120m instead of the usual 150m. Looking across to the old Hobsonville Air Station. The Sunderland Flying Boats were kept in the green hangar by the water, and took off down the stretch of water to the left of the photo. Downtown Auckland is around 10km as the crow flies in that direction.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 4, 2007 11:26:54 GMT 12
Nice photos Chris.
It's a shame the two distant photos from the perimeter fence are not so clear. i wonder if any of our Auckland friends could possibly make Chris some replacements seeing as it's so far for him to travel to Whenuapai?
Regarding the large building between No's 1 and 2 Hangars, that's the former Base Headquarters and also the airfield flying control building. The newer tower and the Castle buildings superceded these. I don't know what is in there now.
Also at Hobby on that wet apron long before the Sunderlands were the TEAL Flying Boats (TEAL built that hangar before the war for the expected Short Empires, but the RNZAF took it over when they moved to Mechanics Bay. Then also in wartime were the Walrus trainers and Catalinas.
Hobsonville was one of the hubs of NZ aviation before the war, with Auckland's Territorial unit flying Vincents and Baffins, the agent for de Havillands based there, TEAL, the regular RNZAf with things like the Fairey IIIF's and Cutty Sark, and a lot more. It's such a shame this historic place will soon be ruined by Government "progress", turning it into a slum.
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Post by steve on Mar 4, 2007 18:29:21 GMT 12
Nice Pics Chris...it would be interesting to compare with mid 1940s pictures of the station after the concrete runways were laid. My particular interest at the moment is locating the position of all ww2 anti aircraft emplacements ...light and heavy)around whenuapai and Hobsonville. ( I have a "secret" map of such produced by army engineers in 42) At hobsonville there were two heavy 3.7 inch emplacements and whenuapai had one heavy located just of trig road. ....exactly the same as the perserved emplacements in gunners road te atatu nth. Also tryng to find the location of Whenuapai's underground command centre in the 1940s...
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 4, 2007 20:11:41 GMT 12
Steve, this one is from March 1941 just before the runways were put in This one is a little later in the war, with the runways in place. Regarding Hobsonville, Bruce and I had a little look around the perimeter and area yesterday too. We noticed at the south gate by the Married Quarters patch there's a very old concrete sentry box still in place. It's very rundown and has some old chairs in it. It'[s a shame that someone doesn't tidy it up and give it some respect. Chris, you mention that No. 3 hangar was used by NAC, and No. 4 Hangar also by TEAl. So in the period of these being in place, did the RNZAF only have the two concrete hangars? They must have been glad of getting all that space back when Mangere opened as international.
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Post by chrisnpl on Mar 4, 2007 20:42:06 GMT 12
Thank you for the compliments. I can only hope the photos do Peter justice after he kindly flew me about Auckland all day!
I'm still getting used to my digicam after many years of using a basic Minolta with two settings - normal, and wide angle!
Photos 1 & 2 were taken from Brigham Creek Road, and I just kept pushing the zoom on the 10x Optical Zoom until things appeared more or less in focus. Considering I was about 500m or more away, I was reasonably satisfied.
Photos 3, 4, and 5 were taken from Hoturoa Crescent.
Photo 6 was taken from Tainui Crescent.
Photos 7 and 8 were taken from the Whenuapai Aviation Sports Club.
Photos 9 - 19 were obviously taken mid-air; and photo 20 was taken from the Upper Harbour Crossing.
(As a total aside does anyone know the gradient of the Upper Harbour Crossing? It felt rather steep for a bridge when I was walking down it).
Dave, what on earth is the Castle? And have I managed to photograph it unwittingly? Or is it that building at the end of Toroa Crescent? It looked like Base HQ to me but I wasn't sure.
I had not heard that Hobby is really to be bulldozed. I'm glad I got a photo or two of it before that happens.
And yes, the RNZAF only had those two concrete hangars during the years of civilian operations. They were also only allowed to use the northern apron on their own airfield; which apart from the NAC hangar was totally their area. Civilian operations were from immediately south of Hangar One and occupied the whole of the South Apron. I think the RNZAF would have been pleased to get all that space back in late 1965 too!
Things were particularly cramped in the first 7 years (until the RNZAF sold their last DC-3 that was based from Whenuapai); but from 1950 - 56 they had a lot of single engine aircraft and stored them in the open (Territorial Air Force Squadron One); and had a reasonable amount of space for their 4 Hastings aircraft; and the Bristol Freighters (12 bought) spent a lot of time abroad, and were sometimes stationed at Hobsonville due to lack of space at Whenuapai. The DC-6s (two of which were operated for only three years) were maintained by TEAL for the RNZAF; and the last RNZAF purchase that arrived at Whenuapai prior to civil operations ceasing was three Hercules aircraft which are still operating. The Orions didn't arrive until a year after Whenuapai - in the guise of Auckland International Airport - closed. The first helicopters arrived around that same time, and were assigned originally to Hobsonville.
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Post by beagle on Mar 4, 2007 20:54:33 GMT 12
great photos. After being there for 13 years, I never had any photos like that and they are great to look back on. Yes things have changed in the 5 or so years I have been away. picture no#7 it is taken behind the fire section and PTSU. That area was filled in during the late 90's due to mosquitos etc being in stagnant water and there was a bit of water that went through there, mostly stagnant though. It was going to be the position for a new gymnasium complex etc but when the project came through to move to Ohakea, that all probably fell over, but there are some new building there, well not new but transferred, but from where. I take it they are from Hobby, mmmmm ex armourey buildings ? anybody able to help. Les, you would probably know.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 4, 2007 21:18:53 GMT 12
The Base HQ building that was built in the late 1980's is behind 40 Squadron Hangar (ie on the base side rather than the runway side) and perhaps a little further up the road toward the north if I recall rightly (it's been a long time since I was based there.)
it's a large two storey building with lots of big tinted windows if I recall right and I remember when i was based there some people caled it the Glass Castle, or shortened to the Castle.
A bit of background that may be of interest to someone. When Whenuapai opened as an operational base in March 1940, the two concrete hangars were still under construction, as were several buildings like barracks, etc. The Auckland General Reconnaissance Squadron moved in from Hobsonville and they were soon merged with remnants (all aircraft and half personnel) from the Woodbourne based and Wigram based GR Squadrons. This almalgamtion became the New Zealand General Reconnaissance Squadron. It served at Whenuapai for a year in this capacity. I am not certain which hangar they used originally, but No. 4 Elementary Flying Training School was also established on the base, and they had at least one of the concrete hangars. The Baffins and Vincents/Vildes of the NZGR Sqn were stored outdoors but would have been maintained in one of the hangars.
In March 1941 the NZGR Sqn became No. 1 Sqn RNZAF, and this squadron occupied No. 3 hangar, known as the Tin Shed, for its maintenance.
By late 1942 Rukuhia had been developed into a station. At some point Whenuapai's No. 3 Hangar was disassembled and moved there, for almost the duration of the war I believe. Now Whenuapai was home to No. 1 GR Sqn, No. 3 GR Sqn (for a short period before going to the pacific zone) and No. 4 EFTS (which disbanded midwar). Later came several fighter squadrons based there at different periods, several bomber units and squadrons rotating through, and two large transport squadrons. Some US units also passed through and made use of facilities. So I guess by the time the No. 3 Hangar was returned and taken over by NAC, they were well used to overcrowding and lack of hangar space. I think the postwar period was probably a doddle after the experience of the wartime goings on there.
When I was at Whenuapai yesterday i was intrigued to see the all new PTSU building, and the aeroclub hangar having moved from the far end of the airfield. In my time I used to get in early to the Liferaft Bay on a cold winter's morning and watch the grunts doing pressups and sit ups in the frosty grass on that patch of land where those two buildings were. This was after their airfield run, and before they started into the day's real work on a PTSU course, learning how to be pushed out of planes!
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Post by chrisnpl on Mar 7, 2007 23:53:35 GMT 12
Thanks for all the extra info Dave! A couple more questions - was the Whenuapai Village - outside the Station - Ngahue Crescent, Tama Quadrant etc. built to house civilians who worked at Whenuapai? Also - does anyone know where the Whenuapai Police Station was during the 1950s? I'm drawing a map at present trying to show where everything was back then, using aerial photos, current maps of Auckland, and historical articles etc etc. There was a store both on base (Takitimu Street)? and one on Brigham Creek Road outside it; but I can't remember what side of the road they happen to be on!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 8, 2007 8:33:50 GMT 12
I would imagine that the Whenuapai village (you refer to the State housing part opposite the main gate I imagine, not over the back by Herald Island?) was built for RNZAF personnel.
Most major stations had a huge building spree in the 1950's and 60's to put up married quarters outside the boundary - Ohakea has Bulls, Wigram had loads of married patch on the western side of base, etc. I think this was mainly because most of the people in the RNZAF were now in it for a career and not the duration of the war, so they were getting men out of barracks and into a house as they mostly had families now.
Did you note the photos of the old Base HQ and Hangars I posted onto the Whenuapai Open Day thread?
I'm curious, how did you find yourself doing a project on Whenuapai? And what will it become? A book? Website?
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