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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 6, 2007 22:44:36 GMT 12
What was the first aircraft to officially break the sound barrier in New Zealand?
And what types have done it other than the A-4?
Also, I know the Corsairs very nearly broke it on occassions, one pilot getting close being Miles Newton King, and another was Trevor Pearce on his first ever flight in the type, as detailed in his book I'm putting online. Someone once said King claimed he had broken the barrier - is there any substance to this story? Bryan Cox's books have a photo of King's Corsair with its fabric sections in tatters.
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Post by mumbles on Mar 6, 2007 23:46:36 GMT 12
I'm not an aerodynamicist Dave but I doubt it is physically possible for a Corsair to go supersonic and remain flyable.
There was an article in Wings I think a few years ago describing a USN carrier visit to Wellington in the late fifties. During the visit a flight of four Cougars was supposed to have gone supersonic over the city, resulting in a few broken windows.
If that is not the first instance in NZ, then the honour would likely go to one of the US 'century series' fast jets that started visiting in the fifties.
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Post by phil82 on Mar 7, 2007 6:48:12 GMT 12
A Corsair wouldn't be capable of breaking the sound barrier and remaining in the same piece of air space! A recent thread on Prune discussed whether a Meteor, had done it, and the answer was a very decisive "NO".
In my time, I think the first 'sonic boom' in NZ was created by an F105 Thunderchief over Ohakea, about the time of that big airshow in 1964. The aircraft was actually offshore near Santoft forest when it did it, but that didn't stop half the farming population of the Manawatu claiming stressed cows, sheep, broken windows etc; all of which were utter bollocks. Most people were unaware of the incident until it was sensationalised by the local press, the Manawatu Standard in particular, with headlines like "Country Rocked by sonic explosion". The bang itself was a lot less than your average thunderstorm, more like a subdued rumble.
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Post by beagle on Mar 7, 2007 6:53:44 GMT 12
just a side question..could a canberra go supersonic, in a dive  ? what was it's max speed |
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Post by kiwi on Mar 7, 2007 7:27:03 GMT 12
No , not in a Canberra either.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 7, 2007 9:05:20 GMT 12
Thanks. I knew a Corsair couldn't go through the sound barrier without breaking up. What I meant was is there substance to the story that King was claiming he had been through? Or was that a later embellishment tacked onto his scary dive story.
You can see Trevor's story in Chapter 12 of his book which is on my site now.
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Post by Bruce on Mar 7, 2007 9:15:13 GMT 12
I recall once seeing a news clipping about the US carrier visit to NZ in the 1950s as noted above. It did specifically mention that the flight of Cougars did go supersonic in a dive overhead Wellington Harbour before the ship arrived. Sorry I cant remember the name of the ship, although "independence" rings bells.
The severe bufetting on the corsair in the dive would give the impression that it was reaching the sound barrier, and once the fabric came of the elevators it would smooth out noticeably, It is likely that Miles thought this sudden smoothness was the result of going supersonic - although he almost certainly wasnt! - Luckily at the speed the metal trim tabs were still effective!
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Post by flyjoe180 on Mar 7, 2007 9:27:37 GMT 12
Some interesting information regarding a shock stall from this site. It seems both the F4U and P47 had similar issues. www.chuckhawks.com/corsair_F4U.htm The XF4U-1 also became the first Navy fighter to encounter shock stall. This insidious problem affected the first generation of U.S. fighters to achieve high mach numbers in a dive, and was due to their lack of laminar flow wings. In other words, the F4U, P-38, and P-47 all had wings that were thick in cross section, which provided high lift, but caused the early formation of shock waves as the air flow over them reached supersonic speeds in high altitude, high speed dives. These standing shock waves degraded the lift normally provided by the wings, resulting in an increasingly steeper and faster dive from which the pilot could not pull out until the plane reached the thicker air of lower altitudes, where drag increased enough to slow the plumeting aircraft and gradually return control to the pilot. Such uncontrolled dives were terrifying and could be fatal if they happened over mountainous terrain where the pilot might run out of altitude before enough speed bled away to permit recovery. |
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Post by phil82 on Mar 7, 2007 9:33:40 GMT 12
If he had never been supersonic, and he most certainly had not in anything he flew, and general knowledge of the phenomenon was a bit scant, how would he know?
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Post by corsair67 on Mar 7, 2007 9:58:14 GMT 12
A Corsair doesn't need to break the sound barrier because it looks glamourous enough at subsonic speed! ;D
I'm sure a USAF F-15 pilot got rapped over the knuckles for breaking the sound barrier somewhere over the central North Island during TRIAD 84 whilst trying to evade another aircraft during combat maneuvering.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 7, 2007 11:22:45 GMT 12
Yes, I seem to recall now somethig about an F-15 breaking the barrier then.
My cousin was/is a hang glider champion and back then he was aloft at only a few hundred feet when two of the Eagles flew underneath him! Scared the bejeebers out of him!
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Post by potblack on Jan 12, 2011 9:31:50 GMT 12
I went to an air show at Ohakea in the early 1960's and the USAF had 'Thunderchiefs' (F105's?) there. One of them broke the sound barrier at low level scaring the crap out of everyone and (we read in the paper) breaking hundreds of windows, particularly glasshouses in the area. It cost the RNZAF thousands of dollars and I believe was part of the reason flying super sonic is banned in this country. Does anyone else remember that air show?
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Post by potblack on Jan 12, 2011 9:53:53 GMT 12
I found this on FLICKR:
Two USAF F-105 Thunderchiefs at RNZAF Ohakea, 1963.
Hawk914 says I have no info for the jet on the right, serial number 62-4269. But the jet on the left, serial 61-0215, was lost in combat on February 26th, 1966 while assigned to the 421st TFS, 6234th TFW (Provisional), based at Korat, Thailand. The pilot was Captain Charles Graham Boyd, who was rescued on this occasion but shot down again on April 22nd, 1966 and taken prisoner.
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Post by potblack on Jan 12, 2011 10:07:00 GMT 12
Found this on the NZ Airshow Archive. It sets the date as Feb 1964 but no mention of the 105 going supersonic.
"The team performed at the RNZAC Pageant, Oamaru, on 8 Feb 1964, and again at the Air Force Day celebrations at Ohakea, on 22 Feb 1964. You will note that there were no performances in 1963, there being no team in existence at that time.
In attendance at the Air Force Day were 6 x F105s of the USAF, 3 x RAF Victors, 1 x Britannia, 1 x Yukon, 5 x Hercules, 1 x Argosy, 1 x Beverly, 1 x KB50, 3 x Neptunes and other RNZAF aircraft."
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Post by strikemaster on Jan 12, 2011 11:23:46 GMT 12
I seem to recall the Eagle incident too. It did cause a bit of a stink in the region.
Dave, I never knew it was possible for a Skyhawk to break the barrier? Is there any footage or pics? That would be pretty neat.
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Post by adzze on Jan 12, 2011 11:25:38 GMT 12
Me either; I heard they were 'transonic' as opposed to supersonic?
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Post by lesterpk on Jan 12, 2011 16:31:13 GMT 12
They used to do it at Nowra when I was there, about the students 5-6th flight. Clean aircraft with no ext stores, climb high, point nose straight down at power. Wait.......job done.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 12, 2011 17:25:38 GMT 12
Indeed, it was part of the course on No. 2 Squadron, they did it in NZ before they went to Nowra too, well off the coast though. I believe it was usually the only times pilots experienced breaking the barrier, but it was broken. That's what I was told when I was in the RNZAF anyway. I'm sure barnsey or someone here has written about the experience of passing the barrier in a Skyhawk somewhere.
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Post by angelsonefive on Jan 12, 2011 18:05:02 GMT 12
Oldie that I am, I can vividly recall standing on Vance Vivian's corner ( Manners and Cuba Streets ) in Wellington and hearing the distinctive double thump as a Grumman Cougar from the USS Tarawa broke the sound barrier over NZ for the first time.
It was the day after the carrier had left Wellington Harbour after her port visit of 13-17 May 1954.
The Cougar was, if I recall correctly, one of 4 which overflew Wgton that morning, but the only one to go supersonic.
My memories of my family's visit to the Tarawa :
A disassembled and slightly bent Corsair night-fighter lashed to the side of the hangar deck.
A Grumman Panther or Cougar ( I cannot recall which ) with the pilot's name stenciled on the side of the fuse. below the cockpit :" Lt-Cmdr Slaughter." A great name for a combat pilot, I thought at the time.
Being allowed by a friendly US sailor to get into the cockpit of a Douglas Skyraider.
The Tarawa was accompanied by two destroyers. One of them was the USS The Sullivans, named to commemorate 5 brothers of that name who all died on the USS Juneau in battle off the Solomons on
13/11/42. As a result of their deaths the US Navy introduced a regulation banning brothers from serving on the same ship.
The visit of the USS Tarawa struck a chord with most people as we associated the name with the USMC division which trained near Wellington and suffered greatly in the invasion of Tarawa Atoll in the (then) Gilbert Islands, today Kiribati.
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Post by strikemaster on Jan 12, 2011 18:30:03 GMT 12
Great story A15, only 7 years after Yeagers flight. I did some googling around and discovered A-4's cracking the barrier during the Vietnam war too. I wish there was some footage.
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