New Zealand's declaration of war

[Dave Homewood]

New Zealand declared war upon Germany at 9.00pm NZ Time on the 3rd of September 1939, simultaneously with Britain. The declaration of war was prseneted by Deputy Prime Minister Peter Fraser, as the PM, Michael Savage, was ill with cancer.

The following day however Savage mustered enough strength in his sickbed to record the following famous words for broadcast to the nation via the wireless:

"I am satisfied that nowhere will the issue be more clearly understood than in New Zealand, where for almost a century behind the sure shield of Britain we have enjoyed and cherished freedom and self-government. Both with gratitude to the past, and with confidence in the future, we arrange ourselves without fear beside Britain.
Where she goes, we go.
Where she stands, we stand.
We are only a small and young nation, but we are one and all a band of brothers. And we march forward with a union of hearts and wills to a common destiny."

What I would like to know is does anyone know whether more was in the original recording? This is the most complete transcription I have, and comes from a 1959 radio show but I don't know if it was truncated when edited into that show.

Also does anyone here know the time that Savage's speech was broadcast? Was it the morning, or evening? Remembering it was a Monday I'd think evening but I have no idea.

Was that recording made prior to the broadcast or during it? ie did it go out live as he spoke or was it broadcast from the recording?

Does anyone know if Peter Fraser also spoke to the nation on that day, or perhaps previously on Sunday night on the 3rd?

I also wonder whether the PM made speeches to the nation when NZ declaredwar on Italy and Japan too. Does anyone know?

[ErrolC]

There is a little more of the speech in the Official History:

www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2Poli-c1.html#n11

‘Not in anger but in sorrow, not in lightheartedness, but with heavy hearts, not in hatred but with a grave sense of great responsibility to mankind and to the future of humanity, not in malice and revenge, but with a prayer of peace on our lips, the British people today dedicate themselves to the work of overthrowing the oppressor and freeing the peoples of the earth from bondage and slavery to a ruthless and cruel tyranny’. Similarly Savage emphasised that ‘none of us has any hatred for the German people’, that the true enemy was Nazism, ‘militant and insatiable paganism’. ‘To destroy it but not the great nation which it has so cruelly cheated, is the task of those who have taken up arms against Nazism.’ He concluded his speech with words which at once assumed New Zealand's independent nationhood and stressed the link with Britain—‘Both with gratitude for the past, and with confidence in the future, we range ourselves without fear beside Britain. Where she goes, we go, where she stands, we stand. We are only a small and young nation, but we are one and all a band of brothers, and we march forward with a union of hearts and wills to a common destiny.’

The intro to 'Kia Kaha' (edited by John Crawford) gives an additional snippet

The 'war on which we are entering may be a long one, demanding from us heavy and continuous sacrifice'.

The reference given for this is:
Broadcast by Savage, 5 Sep 1939, as quoted in W. David McIntyre and W.J. Gardiner, ed., Speeches and Documents on New Zealand History, Oxford University Press, Wellington, 1971, p366

Auckland Central Library has this work
www.library.auckland.ac.nz/subjects/hist/histnzhistoryguide.html

[Dave Homewood]

Thank you Errol, much appreciated. I wish the entire recording was online, like Chamerblain's is (we usually only hear a small snippet of Chamberlain's speech too buy it actually goes on for quite a bit after "...this country is at war with Germany.")

[steve]

I was under the undestanding that because of a botch up with the time and GMT that NZ actually declared War a little time before UK. On the same subject that during the the ?1920s NZ in anticipation of UK declaring war on a country in south europe got in first only to be left red faced when Britain backed away from the declaration. Can anyone confirm these two aspects of war declarations?

[ErrolC]

Steve, the first is a often-repeated myth - for instance, by Lange in <i>Nuclear free: The New Zealand Way</i>.

The first few pages of the Off Hist reference I gave above sets it all out.

The second is perhaps a reference to the tensions with Turkey around then? NZ at one stage was keen to assist the League of Nations in occupying the Dardenelles or some such.

[Dave Homewood]

Wow, I never knew of any 1920's desire to go to war with Turkey, you'd think NZ would stay out of it after the whipping we got in 1915.

Yes, the other is a myth as far as I know.

So many books say that Michael Savage declared war on Germany, but in reality it was Peter fraser who made the official declaration. I wonder if Savage is credited because he signed it off or something, or if people just don't research the topic properly?

[corsair67]

I thought you were referring to the Under-Arm Bowling Incident when many Kiwis wished to Declare war on Australia in 1979! ;D

Is the fatwah on the Chapple clan still in force? ;D

[FlyNavy]

One of the Chappellies even tried to teach India how to (bat &) bowl but gave up...

[steve]

Erroic...thanks for that Turkey was indeed the country and I can see now the myth of the first aspect of my question declaring war on Germany. I did some internet research on declarations of war to learn that the Commonwealth of Australia in fact did not declare war on Germany but relied on the Kings declarations as inclusve of them because they did not opt for full independance until 1942. New Zealand on the other hand had a different legal opinion of self government of the "Dominion of New Zealand"

[Dave Homewood]

I think that myth probably stems from the genuine problem they had of rather slow communication between London and Wellington in those days. New Zealand made the declaration at the pre-determined time but then the staff had to wait a nailbiting while for confirmation that Britain had also declared war. These days it would all be live on TV. Then it was probably coded telegraph.

[Dave Homewood]

I just stumbled onto something while searching for a different topic all together on Papers Past.

Apparently at "one minute past noon, New Zealand Summer Time, on Sunday December 7" 1941, New Zealand formally declared war on Finland, Hungary and Rumania.

Interesting in two respects at least. One is that NZ declared war on those countries but as far as i know there was never any exchange of gunfire between the two sides. I assume this was to make it legally right if New Zealanders in the RAF and Royal Navy might be called on to attack people from those nations? The other thing is that a few hours later Japan attacked British and allied forces in Malaya, and Americans in Hawaii, and New Zealand had to make another declaration of war against Japan. Not a great week for international relations.

I had always assumed we were only at war with Germany, Italy and Japan.

[Tony]

Sept 1, 2011 0:51:33 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

I just stumbled onto something while searching for a different topic all together on Papers Past.

Apparently at "one minute past noon, New Zealand Summer Time, on Sunday December 7" 1941, New Zealand formally declared war on Finland, Hungary and Rumania.

Interesting in two respects at least. One is that NZ declared war on those countries but as far as i know there was never any exchange of gunfire between the two sides. I assume this was to make it legally right if New Zealanders in the RAF and Royal Navy might be called on to attack people from those nations? The other thing is that a few hours later Japan attacked British and allied forces in Malaya, and Americans in Hawaii, and New Zealand had to make another declaration of war against Japan. Not a great week for international relations.

I had always assumed we were only at war with Germany, Italy and Japan.

Now that is very interesting and a good point considering the RNZAF aircrew operating with Bomber Command.
Did Australia & Canada do that as well I wonder?

Sept 21, 2008 14:27:40 GMT 12 corsair67 said:

Is the fatwah on the Chapple clan still in force?

Brilliant ;D ;D ;D

[adzze]

Sept 1, 2011 0:51:33 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

New Zealand formally declared war on Finland, Hungary and Rumania. [...]

I had always assumed we were only at war with Germany, Italy and Japan.

Me too. I thought Finland was at war with Germany? Or did they capitulate early...

[ErrolC]

Sept 1, 2011 20:55:28 GMT 12 adzze said:

Sept 1, 2011 0:51:33 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

New Zealand formally declared war on Finland, Hungary and Rumania. [...]

I had always assumed we were only at war with Germany, Italy and Japan.

Me too. I thought Finland was at war with Germany? Or did they capitulate early...

The USSR invaded Finland in 1940, got a bloody nose, but were successful in forcing surrender and transfer of territory (there was serious discussion about British and French armed support of Finland). This woke Stalin up to just how stuffed the soviet army was, and some purged officers were re-instated etc. Finland declared war on the USSR again in 1941 once the Germans invaded. Once the soviets were winning, they made the Finns declare war on the Germans, and throw them out of their country.

[Peter Lewis]

Finland and the war is a complex issue.

Finland had actually been part of Imperial Russia from 1809 until they saw their chance and declared independence in 1917.

The Russians tried to invade in 1939 (The Winter War) and at that time Russia and Germany were allies, so any declarations of war against Germany by other nations meant that effectively those nations were siding with Finland.
Come 1941 and war broke out between Russia and Germany. As Russia was still militarily engaged with Finland in The Continuation War, Finland was now allied with Germany.

I guess that's why NZ declared war with Finland at that time.

Finally there was the Lapland War of 1944/45 where the Finns forced the Germans out of the northern part of Finland.

Tough guys those Finns, They managed to fight the Red Army pretty much to a standstill and, when necessary, push out the Germans.

[Dave Homewood]

Viking blood I guess.

Something else that has had me wondering on a similar vein.... Why is it that the crews of the Mitchells on the Doolittle raid that diverted to Russia when they didn't have the fuel to land in China were interned for months by the Russians? The USA and USSR were by then strong allies in the war against Germany, but was this because the USSR was not at war with Japan, or something??

[flyjoe180]

The main Axis members were Germany, Italy, Japan, Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria. Indirectly were countries such as Finland, Iraq, and even Thailand. Thailand is also interesting. It was at war with France over Indochina territories and when Japan invaded, allied itself with them. Smaller Axis members brought into the fold by events or ruling fascist governments of the day included San Marino, Yugoslavia, India (Provisional Free Government), and a string of Asian nations under puppet Japanese rule.

[flyjoe180]

Dave, Russia did not want a war with a strong Japan. They already had their hands full on their Western Front, the invasion of the USSR by Nazi Germany and her allies. Later of course the USSR did declare war on Japan, as we discussed in a previous thread.

[Dave Homewood]

I knew that Joe, I just wondered if that was the reason for imprisoning the Doolittle raiders.

The Japs used Indochina and I think also Thailand to launch their attacks on Singapore and Malaya.

Don't forget a good number of African nations were under Vichy French rule, and the Vichy lot alligned themselves with Hitler. There ended up the situation of the Royal Navy sinking a good amount of the French fleet in 1940 with thousands of lives lost as a precaution in case Hitler used them. Leter in Operation Torch there were US, British and even Free French troops fighting French troops of Vichy stock. Often in true French fashion they gave up quickly.

There were also Vichy French supporters in the Pacific, including New Caledonia where the RNZAF had a base and they found them very difficult to deal with.

[flyjoe180]

Often in true French fashion they gave up quickly.

The French hardly give up quickly.