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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 6, 2009 22:44:55 GMT 12
The term 'cashiered' seems to be a dishonorable discharge for some crime that has likely endangered others. That is what I have always assumed.
I am wondering though what the actual perameters are for being cashiered from the RNZAF.
Recently whilst researching in the library looking through some issues of the New Zealand Gazette I noticed a gazetted notation to say a pilot (whom I won't name) had been cashiered from the RNZAF in 1941. I recognised the name as he served in the New Zealand General Reconnaissance Squadron in 1940 and I think continued into No. 1 (GR) Squadron. I wondered then why, as an experienced and valuable pilot, would the RNZAF throw him out of the service? Surely a trained and experienced pilot was a very valuable commodity and it must have been a very bad crime otherwise perhaps they'd just have posted him to Malta or somewhere dangerous to get rid of him.
Then today while interviewing a veteran who'd served on No. 2 (GR) Squadron at Nelson he said a pilot (again I won't name him but not the same guy obviously) joined the squadron. He had apparently been in Singapore and escaped back to NZ. I was told guys on the squadron were somewhat dubious of him, because he had no papers when he arrived and that was suspicious, but it was explained by the fact he lost them on his escape from Singapore. Reading accounts of people who got out by the skin of their teeth there, it's totally plausible.
Anyway this chap said later in the war he read in some notice that this pilot had been cashiered for stealing a pair of sunglasses.
He and I both wonder why on earth the RNZAF would cashier (ie throw out of the service) a trained and combat-experienced pilot for such a petty crime.
What were the perameters? Was the sunglasses thing a cover for something else that couldn't be released? Or did they biff people out for minor stealing incidents?
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Post by alanw on Mar 7, 2009 1:20:13 GMT 12
I recall my late father making a comment about a guy in the
1960's was "cashiered" from the RNZAF for generally being disruptive and not willing to abide by RNZAF discipline.
I seemed to recall the cashiered person did a spell in the Military
prison ("Dartmoor"?? -seems to ring a bell???))
Generally speaking as I understand, it being cashiered had it's origins in the days when people "brought " their commissions
and if unsuitable for service life they (more generally their fathers)
paid for them to be released, though later it became a term
for getting rid of "undesirables" though again I believe that
also would /could mean a spell in the military lockup
As to what the two pilots did to be cashiered in time of war
I could not say, but it would have been more serious than stealing a pair of sun glasses (unless of course they happened to be the AVM's or some such person .. even then).
The only thing possibly for the pilot who escaped from Singapore
to be cashiered is that some one later on "spilled the beans" on
him, in that his escape was more cowardice/ lack of moral fibre.
That definitely would lead to be cashiered out of the service,
especially in time of war.
I seem to recall during the Battle of Britain some pilots who fought/flew then refused to fight, were termed "lack of Moral
Fibre' and thown out (Cashiered).
Believe they spent some time in the military lockup (not to mention the status of "Coward' being awarded to them).
That's my understanding of the term anyway, others may know
better
regards
Alan
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 7, 2009 9:42:15 GMT 12
The NZ miliary prison is Ardmore, not Dartmoor. Dartmoor is a UK prison for murderers ;D
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Post by alanw on Mar 7, 2009 14:29:35 GMT 12
The NZ miliary prison is Ardmore, not Dartmoor. Dartmoor is a UK prison for murderers ;D Thanks Dave ;D I was only young and heard dad telling my mother about it and he would have said Ardmore, but for some reason I thought it was Dartmoor. Actually having said that Dartmoore sounded odd when i thought about it hence my question marks. You live and learn ;D |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 7, 2009 15:09:19 GMT 12
If all NZ prisons were run like Ardmore there would pretty much be an end to re-offending.
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Post by phil82 on Mar 7, 2009 15:27:01 GMT 12
The term "cashiered" would be largely pre-war and early post-war, but very seldom, if ever, used from the early post-war period. I was "in" during the late 1950s, through to the early 1980s and although I was aware of a number of officers who were discharged for one reason or another, it was always the catch-all regulation of "Conduct Prejudicial" or "Bringing the Service into disrepute"; never heard cashiered mentioned.
No names, no pack-drill, [there are people reading this with very long memories], but I can recall a number of occasions when a service discharge occurred very quickly indeed. It could be done in 24 hours, and that was before the Internet and e-mail ! There was a case of religious sect at Wigram known as "The God Squad", which involved at least one officer who became "services no longer required". Another newly-commissioned Pilot-Officer was discharged from Ohakes in the 1960s for a flying offence [he hit a truck on Himatangi Beach in his Harvard!]. It was a brilliant act of airmanship to recover the aircraft back to Ohakea, but it didn't save him. Then there was a Wg Cmdr at Ohakea , the details of which were published in BROs [Base Routine Orders: the means of daily communication around a base], to the effect that "he had lost the confidence of his superior officer".
I my own experience, I once had to do a Summary of Evidence on an Engineering Officer who had done something he shouldn't have, and also should have known not to do it. Try as I might I couldn't get him to word his evidence to at least try to save himself; I even suspended the interview at on stage and spoke to him off the record, but in the end he was given the boot under "Conduct prejudicial". Then, famously, [it was widely reported] there was the lovers tiff at Whenuapai.......involving one of them being killed...... It was a civil police matter, but she was still discharged "conduct prejudicial".
Most people can spend a very long career in the military with falling foul of the fact that it is goverened by rules which are very different from civvy street, but the axe is always sharp, and ready for use.....
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Post by alanw on Mar 7, 2009 16:19:36 GMT 12
If all NZ prisons were run like Ardmore there would pretty much be an end to re-offending. What I am about to say is pretty much here-say, but I have heard that things like white washing lumps of coal (not just a few lumps, more a truck load) then scrubbing it clean again so it was black. Marching up a hill and down (numerous times) with a back pack full of rocks/bricks (some thing similar), though where at Ardmore they would have done that? I don't honestly know? I'm sure there was other such punishments befitting "military" prison discipline. Dave I agree with you about the harshness of military prisons and the no reoffending....... we can but wish/dream One question, where exactly at Ardmore was the prison? Thanks Alan |
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Post by phil82 on Mar 7, 2009 16:27:25 GMT 12
:-[Why are the posts on this site twice as wide as my computer screen?
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Post by phil82 on Mar 7, 2009 16:35:21 GMT 12
I once had the misfortune to be "volunteered" to escort an offender from Ohakea to Ardmore to serve the 28 days detention for theft [from his mates which is as bad as it gets in the services!]. We, that is a Sgt and me went on the train from Masterton, but I'm blowed if I can recall where we got off except it was very dark? Papakura?
I had been around the block once or twice, in two air forces, and I was given a set of handcuffs. In the end, I showed them to him in best "Dirty Harry "style and told him I was going to spare him the embarrassment of using them, but if he got any ideas of an early departure from the train, I would personally get very upset! From what I saw of Ardmore, it wasn't the place you would want to visit!
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Post by 30sqnatc on Mar 7, 2009 17:14:58 GMT 12
Marching up a hill and down (numerous times) with a back pack full of rocks/bricks (some thing similar), though where at Ardmore they would have done that? I don't honestly know? I'm sure there was other such punishments befitting "military" prison discipline. Dave I agree with you about the harshness of military prisons and the no reoffending....... we can but wish/dream One question, where exactly at Ardmore was the prison? Thanks Alan It was near the top of the ridge line south of Papakura. Is the area called Red Hills? Paul |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 8, 2009 10:28:06 GMT 12
Is Ardmore prison still used today? In my four and a quarter years in the RNZAF I only heard of two airmen being sent to Ardmore (one being a well known case of a Cpl Prrovo who fiddled with some ATC kids and got sentenced to A YEAR there!!! The other in a totally different case was a mate of mine whom I still believe to have been totally innocent and was made a scapegoat). I seem to recall hearing the Army used it more often than the other armed forces, but I wonder in the days of all the budget cuts and base closures if the prison is still viable to be kept open. They should have been taking civil prisoners like murderers etc and sorted a few of them out in my opinion.
Your rumours Alan of what went on there are pretty much as we in the Air Force had heard went on there. I recall hearing there was a lot of sleep deprivation and mind games, and heard there was a pile of rocks you had to shift and pile up elsewhere but stack them in the exact order, then shift them back in that order too.
It was often said that those sentenced to Ardmore usually didn't come back, their discharge would swiftly follow their sentence. My mate did come back and sadly he was a changed man. I felt terribly sorry for him, he was a splendid chap, and was rightly angry at the RNZAF system for how he was treated. I really hope he's doing better now.
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Post by John L on Mar 18, 2009 16:56:28 GMT 12
My ex wife used to know a lot of sailors, in the late '60's, and she knew of 2 that "visited" Ardmore, prior to being kicked out. (both wanted out, but couldn't buy their way out so resorted to other means)
I think one let seawater into the boiler of HNNZS Royalist, and the other sabotaged HMNZS Lachlan in some equally destructive way.
They got their wishes, but, from all accounts, it wasn't pleasant!
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Post by corsair67 on Mar 18, 2009 17:15:02 GMT 12
Wasn't there the case of an Air Force inmate who died at Ardmore Prison during some kind of exercise regime in the late-80s?
I seem to recall it got a lot of coverage in the media?
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