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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 21, 2009 17:10:56 GMT 12
Army, navy and air force bases may be sold to the private sector and leased back under one of the options considered by several reviews into the New Zealand Defence Force. Why? This is bad accountants offering bad advice. You know who they'd have to sell the land to, and it would be at the usual cut-down bargain price and then rental back at toip dollar. What nonsense. They've already done this with a load of extremely valuable navy homes around Devonport and I'll bet it's been of no benefit to the navy. Successive governments seem to think their job is to whittle away more and more government owned assets till there is nothing left. It certainly sounds like one of Act's crazy hair-brained schemes. how did they get any votes? I'm afraid this women is an idiot. She showed promise in opposition. Maybe we can put her back there before this all happens. Umm, what?!? Ah, the precursor statement to the announcement of scrapping then. Bye, bye Skyhawks. Why are the media asking him if he wants to sell the LAV's? Have I missed something here, surely they are brand new and from what I've heard, very good. So does that mean an end to the Ready Reserve? or has that already long gone under Labour? Shit, those frigates don't last long. The Hercs will be 55 years old, the boats will be 25 years old (Te Kaha) and just 21 (Te Mana). Why such a short life? The Leanders went for about 40 years didn't they? So they are going to introduce voluntary military service to replace... voluntary military service. Must be a government department... How? Serving in the military has been voluntary since the 1960's and recruitment and retention has dropped steadily since compulsory service as dropped, because the successive Governments have consistently closed bases, reduced squadrons, removed trades and many other options, and ignored defence needs. They're not doing anything new except rebranding recruitment by the sound of things. He'd better brace himself and prepare to open his wallet to double the budget then. Or you could tax businesses to up the defence budget more so their assets are properly protected by a defence force! |
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Post by FlyNavy on Apr 21, 2009 17:59:21 GMT 12
Sea water is very corrosive to steel ships. Maybe your RNZN could mimic the 'Skyhawks in condoms' and put their ships in some giant rubber tube? I jest of course. Ships do not last long except when they are NOT heavily maintained - which over time is also very expensive. To my knowledge the only military ships built to last are the USN Nuke carriers (50 years). Put your aircraft out in all weathers, without much maintenance, and they will not last long. I'm surprised that NZ spends 1% of budget on Defence, whilst Oz spends about 3% by all accounts. Anything that is in the public interest run by bean counters is likely not to perform that essential service; which then justifies to bean counters terminating that exact service. I guffaw at CPAs only because I don't know any. ;D They know I'm joking and I know they are counting.  |
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Post by alanw on Apr 21, 2009 18:19:01 GMT 12
Govt mulls selling army bases Associate Defence Minister Heather Roy Such partnerships will be looked at as part of the White Paper Review This probably sounds very chauvinist; but does a female like her know about a Defense Force!!!  ? Every time I read "White Paper" I know the Military is in for a hell of a time and I don't mean hell as in party  |
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Post by John L on Apr 21, 2009 18:49:51 GMT 12
They didn't get that many, but they seem to be running most of the current governments loony schemes....
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 21, 2009 19:12:07 GMT 12
Alan, Heather Roy is an active member of the New Zealand Territorial Army and one of the very few politicians who theoretically knows anything about defence.
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Post by alanw on Apr 21, 2009 19:24:00 GMT 12
Alan, Heather Roy is an active member of the New Zealand Territorial Army and one of the very few politicians who theoretically knows anything about defence. Dave My apologies to her ;D Hopefully then we may expect good things from her?? Thanks Alan |
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Post by 30sqnatc on Apr 21, 2009 19:35:17 GMT 12
'Defence Minister Wayne Mapp said there was no point having equipment sitting around if it was not being used.
Asked if that meant he would sell the LAVs he said he could not pre-empt the outcome of the review.
"My own philosophy is that, by and large, defence should have what they actually use and not have things they actually don't use."
Defence only use what the government tells them to use and naturally that which the accountants advise the government they can afford to use.
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Post by FlyNavy on Apr 21, 2009 19:46:54 GMT 12
I wonder if your DefMin thinks much about what he says: "...there was no point having equipment sitting around if it was not being used."
Probably that may be correct depending on circumstances but it is a no brainer to get rid of obsolete or useless equipment. However some equipment will just sit there and not be used thankfully. The most outrageous example I can think of is thankfully not in NZed hands (because it is not used then youse guys would sell it). I'm thinking of Nuke Weapons. Sigh. But hey you were all one step ahead of me - right?
No I was not going to mention the skyhawks under white rubber... ;D But hey the US State Dept. is worried to whom you might sell those beauties.
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Post by motoxjase on Apr 21, 2009 21:33:48 GMT 12
Only 10 years ago National signed us up to the F16 deal and now they want to trash the forces just like Labour did while in power.
When are we going to have a Goverment that takes the security of our country as a serious matter?
We need to stop worrying about issues like Fiji and fix our up our own issues including the Military.
I would have thought that having Heather Roy serving in the TF would give her an insight into the realities of what the military needs to function in the real world but its obviously not happening!
Public ownership of defence land?.....What a joke!
Burnham, Waioru, Ohakea etc are and should stay owned by the people not some private entity!!
Ernst and Young???
Aint they the company who made a fat profit spinning the yarn that they have sold our Skyhawks???
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Post by Kenny on Apr 21, 2009 23:05:58 GMT 12
Hahahaha.. It was so funny when Phill Goff replied to Mapps ideas, somthing along the lines of "You cant sell the lavs, they are like an insurance policy, we may need them one day".
Just like our beloved Skyhawks aye Phill. ****in' Idiot.
I dont mind them selling up a few lavs.. but Bases and Land? another laugh.
We really should follow Ron Marks Ideas for a Marine Force. National is partly right, we have all these bloody lavs driving around at home doing stuff all. The Navy and Airforce are always out there doing the hard yards and they have less personel and not enough equipment.
Get the Army and Navy working very close together, focus on pacific regions and start making the NZDF what its been claiming to be for years - "Three Services as One Force"
But hey, much of what theve listed isnt all that bad, It is after all a verry tiny but well needed step in looking at our Defence needs.. I say LOOKING because i know nothing is probably gonna come out of this.
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Post by corsair67 on Apr 22, 2009 11:32:28 GMT 12
Here's a novel idea - get more transport aircraft.
That'd be a good start, instead of worrying about selling off bases to the highest bidder.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 22, 2009 13:12:33 GMT 12
Why not go for a more commercial use of the land while retaining it as defence proprty. Lease some of the airfield space to commercial operators with the money going back into defence. Imagine how much they would have made leasing space at Te Rapa if they hadn't simply given it away.
They could lease some of the land they own to build retirement homes on - nice, safe secure places for our older people who don't mind the loud bangs and explosions because they're all deaf. the RNZAF should have retained Hobsonville and leased the land to Housing Corp rather than just give it to them.
Since the MoD seems to only think about money, maybe the NZDF should begin to think that way too and make some money out of their assets rather than give them up. Other governmnt departments allow commercial usage of their properties.
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Post by sqwark2k on Apr 22, 2009 14:58:38 GMT 12
I met heather roy in January when she visited the NZ Cadet Forces courses at Woodbourne and Dip Flat, she is not an active member of the territorials now that she is the associate minister of defence, cant be a chief and an indian at the same time. She is very pro-cadets and defence and came across as an interesting person to talk to.
As for selling the LAV's, whilst they may be new, some even still in their boxes in storage, they are well undermanned. With 105 bought, I've heard they have less than 30 qualified crews (commander/driver/crewman). They are simply lying around wasted and can't be moved offshore to an operational theatre in a hurry (not even sure a herc can lift one?? they struggle with a UH-1H), sell them!
I personally would like to see a more streamlined Defence Force in partnership with the Ozzies, we should have at least 2 Sqns of transport, with 1 in Oz and more helo's, working in conjunction with the ADF. They can provide the fast jet security for the region, even base a unit here and maybe some training.
Just my thoughts...
S2K
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Post by Kenny on Apr 22, 2009 15:14:34 GMT 12
Lease some of those Unused LAVs to the AOS, STG and South Auckland Police ;D ;D ;D
I had a thought about this, what about a "fake" RNZAF SQN using aussie combat aircraft, the sqn would be based in NZ, flown & run by nz pilots & crews ect but would be actualy an RAAF Sqn. We would benifit from Australian training exercises & what not, and they will benifit from us.
Would leasing aircraft off the Aussies work? Or is there some super duper save the world security thing that stops the leasing of combat aircraft? Or some joint Defence force scheme?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 22, 2009 15:33:55 GMT 12
Our F-16's were going to be leased Kenny. it was a lease to own deal, when they were older we'd inherit them. So yes, you can lease combat jets.
I've said before that asking a Singaporean squadron to base themselves here would be a good idea, they're a staunch allie of NZ, they have no room at home for their own squadrons and base many of them outside of their country, and they could benefit our security whilst we benefit their training and experience, and the mutual co-operation would be well worth it. The same could be done with an ANZAC squadron as you suggest Kenny.
Now that the idea of selling 'some' of the LAV's has been explained by the media, and not all of them as the initial reports seemd to suggest, it makes sense. We only need about 50 of the 105 they bought. Sell half the fleet and invest the return into more helicopters and the new transport aircraft needed by No. 42 Squadron, and make them utility transports so the army benefits from the purchase too.
I'm still amazed that the ANZAC frigates are only destined to last just two decades. It seems to me that this must be the manufacturer's plan for their major customer, Australia, who have the money to throw them away when the warranty runs out and buy new ones - but I'd wager NZ won't be replacing ours in 2020, they'll get a refit and at least a ten year extension. Or they'll be sold and not replaced.
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Post by 30sqnatc on Apr 22, 2009 18:40:33 GMT 12
Since the MoD seems to only think about money, maybe the NZDF should begin to think that way too and make some money out of their assets rather than give them up. Other governmnt departments allow commercial usage of their properties. Unfortunately I suspect this could not be done as much Defence Land was acquired 'for defence purposes' and some even gifted 'for defence purposes'. Start using it for other purposes and it must automatically be offered back to original owner. |
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Post by 30sqnatc on Apr 22, 2009 18:44:36 GMT 12
Our F-16's were going to be leased Kenny. it was a lease to own deal, when they were older we'd inherit them. So yes, you can lease combat jets. . Agreed but I'm sure when you read the small print on the finance schedule your eyes will water when you get to the 'If committed to combat line'. The one off premium payment equals the purchase cost. And you still don't own it. |
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Post by corsair67 on Apr 22, 2009 18:56:45 GMT 12
I'm surprised that the new Govt hasn't considered leasing out its troops as mercenaries: after all, there's a ton of cash to be made out of it and there's always plenty of work available.  |
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Post by FlyNavy on Apr 23, 2009 9:34:14 GMT 12
Why are not the LAVs out in the rain covered in plastic? Please explain? ;D
Singaporeans have been training over at RAAF Pearce for yonks - with training also in other far flung places like France and even USofA. I reckon the RAAF should base their extra squadron of F35Bs in New Zealand for training purposes. Sigh.
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Post by corsair67 on Apr 23, 2009 13:29:35 GMT 12
Maybe Australia could take them off the NZ Govt hands at a bargin basement price - since it looks like the Australian Army's upgraded M113s aren't making the grade.  |
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