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Post by alanw on Sept 9, 2018 22:14:34 GMT 12
David D and Dave H Found this discussion from an another earlier post, and I think I know for my self (not technically supported by any evidence though ) which way I will go. The Olive Drab/NZ Sea Blue Gray/either NZ Sky Gray or NZ Duck Egg Blue underside (the K undersides way too light for US Neutral Grey) Previous Post rnzaf.proboards.com/thread/26656/rnzaf-40k-7-guadalcanalThis forum is a Goldmine of Information Thanks/regards Alan
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Post by alanw on Sept 9, 2018 14:12:30 GMT 12
Hi David, Thank you again for your comprehensive reply, and my utmost apologies if I have proffered any offense or similar, if I have taken any comments out of context or assumed anything wrongly. I have a friend in the UK who has done a lot of research on US Colours on US Aircraft used by the RAF/Commonwealth forces, his go to word is "Suggests" for anything we cannot offer cold hard evidence or shreds thereof With respect to your comments on the K and the Olive Drab scenario, I more or less arrived at the same/similar conclusion to you, looking at the photos of the K's on Norfolk (that happened after reading your previous comments) with the NZ Sea Blue Grey appearing Darker/Fresher I know it is a suggestion on your part, but I have struggled with the scalloping effect, in that if the K's did arrive in the same colours a the E-1's the lower colour didn't come up that far, so some thing didn't fit?? With the undersides and scalloping, again I agree it was/appears a cackhanded way to do things but we're Kiwi's that's what we do right I certainly understand the issues of wartime compliance/lack thereof to any orders for change of paint colours and so forth. I also understand the whole drawings thing - Nathan at the Museum sent me some information on the Mk III Sunderland Roundels, and they were drawings like you mention, but they obviously did the job My question on the introduction of the NZ Sky Gray, is more to do with giving me a time frame (if possible) of Official (or otherwise) issue. If after the departure of the K's to the forward area, then I can effectively rule that out, and have to consider what else could be used (who knows could be another gray paint) such as Sky or Duck Egg Blue (is that an actual RNZAF colour?) For what it's worth, please keep up the great work you are doing with researching our great Air Force. With the likes of you, Dave H and others, we have a far better understanding of the WWII RNZAF than previous. Thanks/regards Alan
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Post by alanw on Sept 8, 2018 23:09:18 GMT 12
Hi David, Thank you again for your reply. Just when I thought I had a handle on the RNZAF Pacific Scheme I certainly, on this path of discovery am aware of Myths and Erroneous information both in books and Websites/forums I certainly recall one of the urban myths in RNZAF circles, was that RNZAF Corsairs did not have folding wings - We know different now My following comments are not meant to be disparaging or throwing people under the bus so to speak in any shape or form, but have helped me form an opinion on the Pacific Scheme (rightly or wrongly). I used the term Pacific Green (rightly or wrongly) from the following Profile I received from Nathan at the Museum - I assumed it was correct? drive.google.com/file/d/1IfCwqR1QauiZup6u_LtaO5SZ6p4wkYtg/view?usp=sharingThe other, is this photo from the RNZAF Museum;s restoration of the P40, and this paint scheme which I imagined (rightly or wrongly) as being the Pacific Scheme (I am aware it's a restoration) www.warbirdsonline.com.au/warbirds/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/P-40F-1-CU-Serial-Number-41-14205-being-restored-as-P40E-NZ2034-at-Ardmore-RNZAF-Museum-NZ.jpgCharles Darby as you are probably aware has this profile in his book "First Decade" drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Yff6LKWML1Mk1JTTItaHhzQzg/view?usp=sharingI recall/noted Pete Mossong making mention that the initial batch of P 40K's arrived in RAF Camouflage (never challenged this)and again I took him at his word. Now As I read your comments on the P40K in the USAAF Olive Drab and Neutral Grey scheme and painting on the NZ Sea Blue Grey, you certainly got my attention and intrigued me (but it was a light bulb moment and made sense). I have for a time had a personal premise, that The RNZAF Pacific Scheme was a NZ equivalent/copy of the then RAF Day Fighter Scheme, Dark Green/Ocean Grey/Medium Sea Grey. To me the Use of NZ Sea Blue Grey was a fit for purpose operational choice, a Dark Grey over the Deep Blue of the Pacific, would stood out like the proverbial sore thumb. A paint choice for Medium Sea Grey is a little more difficult, also given that later P 40's M/N's wore a lower colour of Neutral Grey As you mention in the P40E post, and the painting of NZ3035 (HQ-O) with NZ Sea Blue Grey over the Dark Earth, I note that there is no scalloping of the edging between upper/lower colour, so to me the DuPont Sky Type S remained. As you mentioned above, the Hudson's also had the Dark Earth over-painted, and I am assuming again the lower colour (most likely a Sky/Duck Egg Blue) probably left as is? Given that the Freshish Olive Drab with Fresh NZ Sea Blue Grey, had a lower colour "Scalloped" I ask the question what would that be? 1) Could the lower colour be Sky Type S/NZ Sky (as used on aircraft codes)? 2) NZ Sky Grey - given it was 1943, when did this paint make an "Official" appearance? Sorry for the long narrative (hope it makes sense), but I really enjoy this type of research/discussion. I look forward to any additional information you might have on this? Thanks/regards Alan
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Post by alanw on Sept 8, 2018 12:59:53 GMT 12
David, WOW!! Thank you ever so much!!! Interestingly after my initial post above, I found out that the Group Build also includes the Solomon's, so the P40K is back on. I will also do a P40N with what Dave H has supplied above. My main interest in the K's is No 9 on your list NZ3060, reason being these comments on Pete Mossong's site (lower part of page) rnzaf.hobbyvista.com/gf.htmlI know the colour profile is wrong, given your previous comments on the RNZAF Pacific Scheme (Dark Earth should be NZ Sea Blue Grey) the Green probably can suffice for NZ Pacific Green. Interestingly, just yesterday a gent from the US posted this WWII Diary drawing on Britmodeller - The Diary notes/annotations lead me to conclude the drawing was of a RNZAF P40K in the RNZAF Pacific Scheme. thisdamnnavy.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Nolan-NZ-P-40.jpgThanks again for your much appreciated help! Regards Alan
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Post by alanw on Sept 8, 2018 11:00:28 GMT 12
Hi Dave,
Thank you so much for those Serials, and the Chin numbers also!!!
Quick question (going on memory here) didn't Stan Quill fly NZ3008 (Umslopogass), earlier on back in New Zealand?
Thanks again
Regards
Alan
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Post by alanw on Sept 8, 2018 8:47:00 GMT 12
Is it specifically one operated by No. 14 Squadron that you were interested in? I can suggest some serials from logbooks. Hi Dave, It doesn't necessarily have to be 14 Squadron flown P40N, but If you have some serials from log books, that would be great! Sort of personalizes your model build if you have some sort of history to go with it Thank you Regards Alan
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Post by alanw on Sept 7, 2018 23:27:39 GMT 12
No. 14 Squadron did not have P-40's in the Pacific, they flew aircraft that belonged to the Servicing Units. The Servicing Units at Torokina were No.'s 2 and 4 Servicing Units. No. 4 SU only had P-40N's at Torokina,and it was February 1944 when No. 14 Squadron got to that island. Looking at logbook entries for pilots who wre on that tour they seem to have been flying only P-40N's of No. 2 SU. Hi Dave, I knew that about the SU's - Should have re-phrased that did, 14 Squadron fly K;s from Torokina. Sometimes you just forget when typing (how embarrassing ) Thanks for the information on the N's with 4 SU and the 2 SU log book information. As I said to David D, I'll go with a N and there are a good number of N photos in the P40 Pile Thanks again Regards Alan PS will post the build in the modelling section
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Post by alanw on Sept 7, 2018 23:13:56 GMT 12
All our remaining P-40Ks were withdrawn from the frontline prior to the RNZAF Fighter Wing moving forward to Torokina in January 1944, and the P-40Ms were not too far behind them either. Sorry to rain on your parade, but them are the facts of the matter. I could provide more detailed notes if required. David D Hi David, I had been wanting to build a K in the Pacific Scheme for a while now I had a gut feeling that the K's didn't go to Torokina, and thank you for clarifying that for me (no problem with the rain on the parade ) I'll just go with a an N Model, and build the K another time. There are plenty of photo's in the P40 Pile to pick a suitable subject. Thanks again for your invaluable knowledge and help. Regards Alan
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Post by alanw on Sept 7, 2018 22:12:05 GMT 12
Hi All,
I'm going to participate in a Group Build (another Forum) and was hoping to do an RNZAF P 40K in the RNZAF Pacific Scheme
Question I have is, when 14 Squadron moved to Torokina/Bouganville would they have taken their P40K's with them?
I know they had the newer P40N's there.
Thanks
Alan
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Post by alanw on Aug 30, 2018 13:03:07 GMT 12
Probably anytime soon, but if anyone falls for that they're an idiot as it is a pretty rough colourisation. It will end up on some model forum being debated as to this or that with the colours you have used /not used
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Post by alanw on Aug 30, 2018 12:58:04 GMT 12
Hi Dave, That is really really nice - I like it, its one of those photos that I could frame and hang on the wall Yes I know its not actual, but still looks good none the less I so wish during WWII (at least) that our RNZAF Camera people had a colour film to record our Air Force in colour like this. Thanks for posting it Regards Alan
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Post by alanw on Aug 29, 2018 15:02:00 GMT 12
Those swathes are interesting Alan, but for all we know they may be faded from 30-40 years sitting in the weather at Rukuhia (or elsewhere). I am referring to in service time of the NZ-based Olive Drab P-40's, which realistically served from late 1943 to mid-1945 only. Hi Dave, Very True about the time frame at Rukuhia and fading. I would say that the P40 (K/M/N's) that remained at home would have weathered much differently to their counterparts in the Island operational areas. How much weathering is hard to say realistically (wish we had a time machine and use of modern cameras ) The weather we have today is different to say period of 1943 - 45. I recall my dad growing up in Auckland during WWII and how colder the winters were as opposed to say even 20 years ago which I think would have had a different weathering manner to say now. Definitely need a time machine Regards Alan
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Post by alanw on Aug 29, 2018 14:22:28 GMT 12
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Post by alanw on Aug 29, 2018 14:07:01 GMT 12
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Post by alanw on Aug 29, 2018 14:00:58 GMT 12
Alan, so far as I know, all the early fighter squadrons had codes of a similar colour, probably similar to the Hudsons, Vincents/Vildes, Singapores and Hinds as well as Harvards serving with front-line squadrons in first half of 1942. Certainly in March 1942, it was indicated by RNZAF HQ that sufficient supplies of paint of the appropriate colours were available at this time to refinish all the trainer, and operational aircraft in the RNZAF required for operational duties, in the face of Japanese advances in the South Pacific, but whether this extended to the addition of unit code letters is not indicated. However, this would only add a small fraction to the total orders, so I cannot really see that production of such colours as desired would be a problem. One sometimes hears of odd colours being used for various purposes for differing reasons on RNZAF aircraft in (and since) WW2, but if that were the case, then we are unlikely to learn much more about any of these instances after all these years. Sorry to be vague, but similar minor colour mysteries have also afflicted just about every air force since time immemorial, causing grief and despondency among the modelling fraternity, so we are in good company. David D Hi David, Again many thanks for your reply. I will go with Sky Codes (like the Hudson's) for my NZ3008 build Interesting also your comment re the size of the serials between the Hobsonville and Harewood bases, I'm pretty safe to go with the standard 8 inch codes for NZ3008 Thanks/again Alan
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Post by alanw on Aug 28, 2018 20:40:56 GMT 12
David D You Sir, are an inspiring fountain of Knowledge!! Thank you again for your reply - most helpful and enlightening. I never knew our Air Force had specific aircraft set up for Gunnery training.
I love researching our WWII Air Force just seeing what turns up is amazing So GTS wore Yellow - I see that as being a big help in gunnery training. If I may, what colour then would 14 Squadrons' codes be? Now that I know, need to get my Model build of NZ3008 right Thanks again, you really have made my day!!! Thanks/regards Alan
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Post by alanw on Aug 28, 2018 20:29:27 GMT 12
What makes you think the codes are yellow Alan? Hi Dave, Reading Pete Mossong's site, he had the following picture for a time - I never had reason to doubt his knowledge? But reading more and more, something didn't add up, hence my question. drive.google.com/file/d/17enQpm5S1VOLWHwtDBdly9M_17C6FDkf/view?usp=sharingThough researching for my P40E-1 Build NZ3008, I did find out that "Umslopogass" was not a cartoon character, but the name of a Zulu Warrior/Chief and companion of Allan Quateremain lxg.wikia.com/wiki/UmslopogaasRegards Alan
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Post by alanw on Aug 28, 2018 16:58:49 GMT 12
Hi All,
Awesome thread thus far, and David D awesome mementos in your a aforementioned gift.
Slightly off topic, but seeing as we are discussing 14 (F) Squadron P 40E-1's. Is there any rhyme or reason for the likes of NZ3008 etc to wear "Yellow" coloured Codes? Other Squadrons' P40E-1's wore either Sky or Grey (JZ 15 Sqn or XO 16 Sqn).
Also the colour of NZ3008's Spinner White or Sky?
Just curious - Yellow certainly would stand out for training purposes.
Thanks
Alan
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Post by alanw on Aug 27, 2018 17:57:33 GMT 12
David D, Thank you ever so very much for taking the time to research the information for me - very much appreciated What you have posted, answered a number of questions and more, and also gave me further learning about my Country's wonderful Air Force history. The more I look more to learn I had no idea about the 12 Unit information - cool to know I for one am very grateful for the records and archives held by the RNZAF Museum. As an aside, I just yesterday came across this link written about our WWII Air Force it's a slog to read through and makes the blood boil a tad - don't know where this individual got their info warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/wwii/kiwis-over-the-pacific-the-rnaf-in-world-war-ii/Thanks again Regards Alan
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Post by alanw on Aug 26, 2018 14:51:25 GMT 12
The upper wing roundels on HQ-Q are the very similar to those painted on the 16 Sqdn Kitties when they were photographed in April 1943 over National Park. I would not be too surprised to learn that the 14 Sqdn P-40Es in these well-known shots already had the new blue-grey paint in the upper-surface camouflage in place of the original American version of dark earth. However I cannot prove that contention either, but this repainting was going on at about this very time. Peter Gifford would have been flying 3008 in these formation shots, as he was one of its regular pilots. Most P-40Es had two assigned pilots as there were only about ten - twelve Kittyhawks per squadron (plus six Harvards), and well over twenty pilots. The other roundels and finflashes in this formation were also applied only a few months earlier over the top of the original factory-applied markings, probably in October 1942. The RAF introduced this new style of roundel (the type C1) at some point in about mid-1942 from memory, so we were not too far behind in its adoption. David D Hi David D, Whilst "Interpreting" Colours from Black/White photos is always a debatable subject, interestingly enough having viewed this photo multiple times, I certainly agree that the new NZ Sea Blue Grey had been applied to NZ3036. My reasoning is that if you compare contrasts to NZ3008 and NZ3036, the "Dark Earth" on NZ3008 is a different hue compared to NZ3036 The paint appears "Darker" as I would imagine newly applied NZ Sea Blue Grey would opposed to the more weathered Dark Earth. So this lead me (IMHO) to conclude the application of NZ Sea Blue Grey. The lower application (as mentioned above) of the "HQ" code is significant also I believe. Just my 10 cents worth Regards Alan
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