I thought the RNZAF didn't have torpedoes in WWII

[Dave Homewood]

I have been examing a record which i photographed in the archives of the RNZAF Museum during my book research which gives personnel and aircraft strengths on all the RNZAF Stations on the 1st of May 1943. It also lists the units on each station on that day.

For RNZAF Station Hobsonville the following is listed among the units in the uinit column:

"Torpedo Training School
and Torpedo Bomber Squadron"

So, what was this all about then? Did they have aircraft? If yes, then what? Did they actually drop torpedoes in training?

[tbf25o4]

Hi Dave,

the short answer is almost!
In late 1942 it was proposed that the RNZAF would received some beauforts ex RAF and from the australian production to operate as torpedo bombers.
This proposal was advanced when the Avengers were identified as the alternate aircraft to the beauforts. However, sensibility prevailed and based on experiences of the US Navy with torpedo bombers (the heavy losses suffered by Avengers attacking the japanese fleet at midway), it was decided that the RNZAF should concentrate on using the aircraft in ground support medium level and glide bombing.
Those earmarked for torpedo training aircrew and groundcrews were re-assigned to No.30 Squadron

cheers

Paul

[ErrolC]

Dec 15, 2009 7:39:32 GMT 12 tbf25o4 said:

Hi Dave,
This proposal was advanced when the Avengers were identified as the alternate aircraft to the beauforts. However, sensibility prevailed and based on experiences of the US Navy with torpedo bombers (the heavy losses suffered by Avengers attacking the japanese fleet at midway),

You mean Devastators at Midway, of course (there were a few Avengers on Midway itself).

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks Paul. That's very interesting. Another RNZAF "what if" scenario for the modellers. Given the date I suspected the Avengers may be involved, but was still confused. Whoever was posted to that squadron and school (ie instructors) in May 1943 must have had a cruisy time for a bit of the war. The Avengers never arrived till September.

[baz62]

You were correct Dave, the US Navy Avengers very first action was at Midway. 6 of them took off but only one shot up one made it back!! Not a great start but considering the odds and lack of fighter escort not surprising.

[Dave Homewood]

Paul, not Dave.

[vs]

Just read a really good book about it called "A Dawn Like Thunder" by Robert Mrazek. The 6 Avengers were operating from Midway and only one made it back. All the devistators from the 2 ships were lost

[alanw]

Hi Dave

Wally Ingham, in his book Avengers makes mention that some RNZAF personal were sent to train (in Australia from memory)
with the US Navy for torpedo training, so they could use the TBF's
in that role but, as Errol says it was decided to opt for bombing
for ground support in lieu of torpedo attack.

It would be cool to have a RNZAF TBF modelled with a torpedo.

The TBF's at Midway were mauled (VT -8, as were all the other USN VT squadrons there), later on, when the USN had modified things (torpedoes inclusive) the TBF/TBM's certainly gave Japanese shipping (and to some extent the Germans in the Atlantic) a pasting.

I have a photo in one of my books where a TBF/TBM had torpedoed
a Japanese Destroyer, and had cut it in half.

On Midway, and the TBD attacks (especially VT-8 TBD's), if you have
a chance, read Ensign George Gay's account of the attacks on
the Japanese fleet, great reading.
Those men flying the TBD's were truly heroic

(Just a note of Clarification, VT-8 had both TBD-Devastator and
TBF Avenger at Midway)

Regards

Alan

[Dave Homewood]

Alan said:
"Wally Ingham, in his book Avengers makes mention that some RNZAF personal were sent to train (in Australia from memory) with the US Navy for torpedo training, so they could use the TBF's in that role but, "

I have not had a chance to flick through Wally's book again to check this, but I know for a fact that No. 8 GR Squadron pilots Mick Wilkes and R.H. Browne were officially posted from the squadron on the 21st of May 1943 to attend a course in the USA. From Mick's logbook I have seen he (and I guess browne too) went to NAS Jacksonville, Florida hwere he converted onto the TBM Avenger. He trained there June till August 1943, during which about 1/8th of his flying was doing "Torpedo Tactics". He returned to Gisborne to join No. 31 Squadron.

I wonder if the Torpedo Bomber Squadron at Hobsonville was a group of pilots being assembled there to ship off to the USA to train perhaps? Just a thought.

[alanw]

Hi Dave

Went through The Avengers again, and noted the following:

Page 21
Wally mentions that end of May 1943 the following personal
were posted to VTB OTU #2 NAB Jacksonville, Florida, to undergo further TBF training, F/L Wilkes, F/O Browne, F/O Hadlow with Flt/Sgt
WAG's Webb-Pulman, Curtiss, Dornbush.

(VTB = Carrier Torpedo Bomber)

Page 22
December 1942, LAC Blythe and 5 other Airmen received orders to go to RAAF Station Nowra, NSW to undergo a 3 month torpedo maintenance course with lectures by US Naval instructors.

They were accompanied by an RNZAF Engineering Officer, Flt Lt Ron Leonard and an un-named LAC, Instrument Mechanic.

Prior to course completion, S/Ldr Hartshorn visited with them, and
told them of changes in the Pacific War, they were going to bomb
the Japanese instead.

Wally mentions that the men completed the course.

Hope that helps

Alan

[Dave Homewood]

Cheers.

[davidnzl]

I am not sure if you wish to consider 489 NZ Squadron - (a WW@ Article XV Squadron - based in UK) as a RNZAF Squadron for this purpose. They most certainly carried and dropped torpedos to great effec t

[angelsonefive]

After the two USN carrier raids on Rabaul in November 1943 the Imperial Navy withdrew its principal ships from the fleet base there and sent them to Truk.

Truk was, of course, too far away from the Solomon Islands to be reached by aircraft so it was probably a stroke of luck that the RNZAF had decided not to go ahead with the torpedo proposal.