|
|
Post by camtech on Jan 20, 2023 15:59:19 GMT 12
Are you able to contact Joe Baugher and ask him to explain his discrepancy? Have just emailed him to see what he can tell me. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2023 19:04:55 GMT 12
One point that still confuses me, Zac, is the Constructors No quoted on the NZ Civil Register. 32823 is not a Corsair no by my reckoning. Goodall has the constructor’s number as 3205, for what it’s worth. |
|
|
|
Post by Mustang51 on Jan 20, 2023 19:34:20 GMT 12
I know Geoff Goodall personally. He lived at my place in Bangor, Sutherland Shire, (Centre of the known Universe), for over nine months and went through every magazine, article, book, note etc in my collection during the preparation of his weighty tome, the "Warbirds Directory". Why do I say this, its because I know the lengths that he went to in the investigations of each aircraft and the angst he had regarding contentious machines. It happened often that he published data that the 'owners' disagreed with but from his research and a plethora of sources - primary, secondary and tertiary - he tracked down the accurate data. He often said "...a grown man making lists of aircraft..." but then took up his glass of wine and sallied forth. He never stated his lists were without error but from my personal observation, I believe that from any two sources one of which was his, I would follow Geoff implicitly.
|
|
|
|
Post by camtech on Jan 20, 2023 20:56:45 GMT 12
Ando, I would agree in most cases, and in this case, Geoff's data is worth its weight in gold. However there are a few things about 5648 that don't sit right.
The oddball MSN on the NZCR, the RNZAF records and the convoluted restoration process are waving little flags still.
It may be a simple explanation, but I think we would all like to see it and confirm Geoff's research.
One additional issue is that the MSN quoted on the US Civil Register is the same as shown on the NZCR - 32823, albeit the US version has a "P" as a prefix. Could that originate from an engine?
|
|
|
|
Post by curtiss on Jan 21, 2023 7:34:24 GMT 12
One point that still confuses me, Zac, is the Constructors No quoted on the NZ Civil Register. 32823 is not a Corsair no by my reckoning. I've tried BuNo and that does not compute. The jury is certainly still out on the correct identification of this aircraft. Some hocus pocus going on here. I am not surprised about the MSN being wrong on the register. There are oddities with many warbird aircraft on the register. Harvards have the RNZAF "NZ" number for their serial, not the MSN. |
|
|
|
Post by davidd on Jan 21, 2023 10:05:59 GMT 12
The "P" prefix to a number mentioned in camtech's post (above) set off some loud alarm bells. The letter "P" was used as a prefix for Pratt & Whitney aero engines, so I think an R-2800-8W is probably what was inadvertently included in the data on this aircraft. What was the serial number of the engine fitted to 5648 on receipt by RNZAF in 1945? Remember that aero engines in the forward area had fairly short overhaul lives (I think 100 hours in case of R-2800s, mainly due to erosion of supercharger impellers resultant on ingress of coral dust), so may not have remained long in the airframe under discussion. It is highly likely that 5648 flew no operations with RNZAF in forward area due to end of the war, and the factory-fitted engine possibly powered this aircraft on its return flight to NZ in about Sept 1945.
Other pre-fix letters were allocated to cover all United States aero-engine manufacturing companies to standardise the nomenclature systems in about 1944, which simplified and improved the previous, overly complex situation. The main aim of the revised system was to simply use the actual manufacturer's engine serial number, plus the new (Army/Navy) prefix letter (which was a code) intended to quickly indicate the true manufacturer, in cases where another company was involved in the production programme. Previously, the US Navy and the USAAF had, like the RAF, allocated a specific-to-Service serial number (each US service had their own series of numbers) to each engine ordered/received, thus effectively giving all engines two serial numbers.
|
|
|
|
Post by camtech on Jan 21, 2023 14:42:44 GMT 12
Bingo - never thought of that one. Checked AF380 and there it is - P32823 is the engine fitted to NZ5648 on acceptance by the RNZAF. So one mystery solved thanks to David.
Now, how do we confirm the correct Buno and MSN for this aircraft?
|
|
f28
Leading Aircraftman
Posts: 4
|
Post by f28 on Jan 26, 2023 14:55:32 GMT 12
With the news that "Our" Corsair Josephine is for sale by the "Old Stick and Rudder" place in Masterton, does anyone know what price they are asking for this Corsair? It's been kept pretty quiet. An email to them brought no reply. I see on the Australian Aviation Trader website, that the formerly Darwin based ex Honduran Corsair (owned by Hoskins) is for sale around 5 million Australian dollars. It's something to think about.
|
|
|
|
Post by keroburner on Jan 26, 2023 21:55:44 GMT 12
The oz F4U-5 has been for sale for a few years now.... Undesirable model to most people..... Plenty of Corsairs for sale at the moment. Check out Platinum fighter sales website..... remembering these are a lot more expensive than other warbirds to buy... Reflective of the cost to restore these complex machines...
There has been an increase in rebuild activity for this type in recent times, Vultures row are 1 player.... but the overall cost to rebuild corsairs won't really decrease that's for sure...Sadly...
|
|
|
|
Post by angelsonefive on Jan 26, 2023 22:36:09 GMT 12
Bingo - never thought of that one. Checked AF380 and there it is - P32823 is the engine fitted to NZ5648 on acceptance by the RNZAF. So one mystery solved thanks to David. Now, how do we confirm the correct Buno and MSN for this aircraft? "The US Navy history reads: FG-1D BuNo.88391 April 1945 - NAS Columbus May 1945 - In route to Guam June 1945 - CASU-11 aircraft pool July 1945 - VMF-323 August 1945 thru June 1946 - VMF-441 July 1946 - VMF-311 August thru October 1946 - NAS San Diego, CA November 1946 thru March 1947 - Jacksonville, FL April 1947 thru May 1948 - NAS Mineapolis stricken on October 31, 1948 Brett↓" So 88391 could never have had an RNZAF serial. I think 88391 was c/n 3205. |
|
|
|
Post by camtech on Jan 27, 2023 9:15:29 GMT 12
Wow!
Maybe we have some traction in the story of Josephine at last.
Thank you for that source.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 27, 2023 9:15:31 GMT 12
It is often said that when NZ5648 was restored in the USA it was given wings from an ex-Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm Corsair, which explained the clipped wingtips and the step cutout in the wing. Does anyone know which FAA Corsair that was? Wondering if it was one of the ones the Royal Navy operated at Quonset Point, Rhode Island, where they worked up newly trained pilots into carrier squadrons? Maybe the aircraft was flown by a lot of Kiwis?
|
|
|
|
Post by camtech on Jan 27, 2023 9:23:41 GMT 12
I believe one of the earliest owners was going to use her as a racer and clipped wings were going to be one way of producing more speed.
|
|
|
|
Post by chrism on Jan 27, 2023 9:53:46 GMT 12
The step cutout in the wing flap was standard for all 1D Corsairs onwards and some 1A's. Not sure exactly when it was introduced?
I've heard the wings cut for racing story from several people too. I believe the FAA removed the wingtip and replaced it with an end cap? Apparently 5648's wings have been roughly cut and then faired over?
|
|
|
|
Post by camtech on Jan 27, 2023 13:49:01 GMT 12
Bingo - never thought of that one. Checked AF380 and there it is - P32823 is the engine fitted to NZ5648 on acceptance by the RNZAF. So one mystery solved thanks to David. Now, how do we confirm the correct Buno and MSN for this aircraft? "The US Navy history reads: FG-1D BuNo.88391 April 1945 - NAS Columbus May 1945 - In route to Guam June 1945 - CASU-11 aircraft pool July 1945 - VMF-323 August 1945 thru June 1946 - VMF-441 July 1946 - VMF-311 August thru October 1946 - NAS San Diego, CA November 1946 thru March 1947 - Jacksonville, FL April 1947 thru May 1948 - NAS Mineapolis stricken on October 31, 1948 Brett↓" So 88391 could never have had an RNZAF serial. I think 88391 was c/n 3205. Part of the problem with the two BuNo numbers is the Constructors No, with 3205 quoted for 88391 and 3305 for 92044, so easily transcribed. The question remains - how did NZ5648 finish up being quoted as BuNo88391? |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2023 16:54:51 GMT 12
It is often said that when NZ5648 was restored in the USA it was given wings from an ex-Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm Corsair, which explained the clipped wingtips I believe one of the earliest owners was going to use her as a racer and clipped wings were going to be one way of producing more speed. Les is quite right: they are not Royal Navy wingtips, if one compares images of an RN Corsair and this one differences can be seen. The aircraft went to Jim Landry & Pat Palmer in 1973 and was to be converted to an Unlimited racer, #99 Really Gotcha!! (the pair campaigned two orange T-6s in the 1970s, #9 Gotcha! and #99 Gotcha!!, hence the number and name and the Corsair would have been similarly painted). They ended up restoring her stock and she flew again on 17/07/1982 (thanks Geoff Goodall!). "trustdecals" produced this artist's impression some time back - sensitive folk may wish to avert their eyes!  #99 Really Gotcha by trustdecals by Zac Yates, on Flickr |
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 27, 2023 17:18:54 GMT 12
A pity, I was hoping for some Kiwi FAA connections since it did nothing much in the RNZAF.
|
|
|
|
Post by chrism on Jan 27, 2023 20:15:53 GMT 12
Looks like I was wrong with my comment about the step cutout in the wing flap. It was only introduced towards the end of 1D production, although was retrofitted at times. In fact despite searching high and low I am yet to find a wartime picture of an RNZAF Corsair with the cutout step? Even Josephine itself didn't have it when tidied up during the 1960's.
|
|
|
|
Post by Antonio on Jan 27, 2023 20:23:19 GMT 12
A pity, I was hoping for some Kiwi FAA connections since it did nothing much in the RNZAF. She survived. |
|
|
|
Post by baz62 on Jan 28, 2023 15:01:02 GMT 12
The step cutout in the wing flap was standard for all 1D Corsairs onwards and some 1A's. Not sure exactly when it was introduced? I've heard the wings cut for racing story from several people too. I believe the FAA removed the wingtip and replaced it with an end cap? Apparently 5648's wings have been roughly cut and then faired over? As I understand it the wingtips are not a seperate item on Corsair wings.(Unlike wing tips on Spitfires,Harvards etc which can be unbolted) So for the FAA wing they were built that way. Whereas NZ5648 had the tips modified to clipped style, just not identical to FFA profile. |
|
